STATter 911

And, were off to the races with this one.
 

I guess RUBSTER is not 1403 compliant. Hope for a speedy recovery OIC
 

More guys doing this on Chain Bridge Road probably would have saved us from the eyesore that turned into.
 

"More guys doing this on Chain Bridge Road probably would have saved us from the eyesore that turned into."

what?? Catching fire??
 

WTF !!!! Nozzles can spray water at least 50ft!!!! This is the hero mentality that is killing firefighters. Idiots!!
 

Reminds me of the Hillendale Live Fire incident from several years ago...
 

DId you hear the commentator when he said, "CHief can we get the backup line over here."

Should this be consodered a live burn. I guess the RIT guys were having a cup of coffee. Good to see the white shirt come over to assist--thats right, white shirts don't need gear on when there is a fire going on, they'll never have to do anything. Our Dept has a CHief for the last 30 years that does the same thing, CHIEF, BE THE EXAMPLE ALL THE TIME!!!!
Our Chief, er I mean chief, is just a bad example.

I'm glad those paid guys weren't hurt.
 

Reminds me of the video from a Hillandale open house years ago where an overeager volunteer crawled into a fully involved demo fire and was seriously burned.

-WFDT
 

one word: embarrassing
 

The Officer was hurt and spent the night in the burn unit! Also there wasnt a back-up line!!
 

Why would you crawl into this 4 x 6shed, is this to prove you can take the heat? The is not excuse for poor decsion marking, and the officer set the example. This is not mocho, it is stupid. I wish tehm a speedy recovery.
 

I'm sure the "RUBE", will blame it on a water supply issue.
 

Idiots! All three should be fired!
 

I guess they wanted to look tough by gettin up close and personal with the fire, to try and impress the crowd. The nozzleman sure didnt have a clue about anything that was going on it seemes. Very embarrasing to that department.
 

Looks like the 3 Stooges plus 1.
 

You shouldn't need a backup line because these demos are NOT INTERIOR FIRE OPERATIONS. For crying out loud, WTF would they crawl in there??? Oh, because "that's what WE do."
 

Im sure there will be a new Memo out about this great way to f-ck up guys on TV at that. must be from a good firefighting company or had spent the last 4 months on ambo duty and had to get the fire
 

Oh Boy...WASA going to get it NOW !!!
 

"Good Job, Kenny I see why you made DFC...LOL !!!"
 

It sounds to me like these guys need to be given raises. At least some people remember how to put fires out. I know all you Maryland and virginia guys would have been "50 feet" away because you are worried about burning your traffic safety vests.

It's sad that firefighting has become a pansy career in some places. You should practice how you play, and these guys were doing just that... some good old aggressive firefighting.

If it wasn't for some lousy structural issues with the plastic the crew would have been just fine
 

you people are a bunch of whiney bitches, the freakin plastic melted and fell on them. They didn't go in and be macho. I hope you tools aren't on any fireground I happen to be on. WTF
 

Wow how is Rube going to spin this one??? ABSOULUTELY NO REASON TO MAKE ENTRY INTO THAT FIRE!

Pretty ugly day in a professional department.
 

Is anyone a Phillies fan? Hello is this thing on? Umm pay no attention to the burning firemen, uh moving right along. Wow, look how awesome sprinklers are! Thank you ladies and gentlemen don't forget to tip your waitress
 

Maybe being the fire serive icon that he is Rube would realize that maybe its not a good idea to hold a live fire demo when there is a HIGH WIND ADVISORY in DC. The national weather service was predicting up to 50 mph gusts! Rube mentions multiple times that the demo isn't going as planned due to the wind. Hello! Hint Hint Hint! The Fireman did not enter the shed the moved in closer as they were knocking the fire and the wind blew fire/melting plastic on them. Also great job by crosswhite moving ever so fast to help the fireman. Shows he does nothing unless rube tells him to, and if its helping the rank and file he does it half heartedly while remembering to remain arrogent. His actions made me sick but not as much as the crowd cheering as fireman were burned or the rube moving right along to the second half of the demo. If that doesn't show DC firemen everything they need to know I don't know what does
 

Hmmmm how many fires have you all been in where plastic falls from above or anywhere else. Im quite sure these gentleman didnt know at the time there was plastic above there heads, that would eventually fall onto them.
Instead of calling them idiots why dont you question the person or persons that built this demo and ask them why there was plastic at the top frame of there demo?
Sure plastic is everywhere inside of a burning home etc...but last time i heard, plastic was not part of the materials used for wood frame construction.
 

Maybe the Rube being the fire service icon that he is, would realize maybe its not a good idea to do a live fire demo when there is a HIGH WIND advisory in effect for the DC AREA with 50 mph gusts expected. The firemen never went in the shed they merely moved closer and a wind gust blew the fire/melting plastic on them. Listen to Rube talk earlier he mentions the wind several times and how the wind is making the demo not go as planned. Hmm hint hint hint! Also, nice job by crosswhite rushing in ever so urgently you can tell he really cares! Guess he doesn't do anything without being told and then if it affects the well being of the rank and file he does so half heartedly. His effort made me sick, way to try and look cool as fireman are being burned. Then they continue the demo as if nothing happened!! Wow, if that doesn't sat it all right there
 

-Eastern Market
-Georgetown Library
-Adam Mill Rd.
-Douglas
-Mt. Pleasant
-Chain Bridge Rd.

And now this...a simple Demonstration goes bad. It's not WASA !!!
 

The OIC is a BIG TIME Vollie with KENTLAND!!!!! HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA! GO 33!!!!
 

Not really a big deal is it ? They weren't on fire, or in any danger of being injured, just a little bit of the poly from the roof dripped onto their turnouts. Biggest hassle from all this would be getting the melted plastic off of the PPE !
 

They were plenty close enough at the begining to extinguish this fire, it's a box for cryin out loud. What kind of interior attack needs to be done on this.
 

Size-up would have eliminated the problem here. Its windy, they didnt see the plastic, thats all bull**it. Pay attention and make it your priority to know WTF is going on. People talk as if these guys pulled up, jumped off the rig and started fighting fire. This is how firefighters get killed!!
 

The OIC is not a BIG TIME vollie at Kentland, the OIC is the Fire Chief of the DCFD, and he should of had the common sense to relize that the set-up was not a good one. I'm sure that the anonymous poster that ended with HA HA HA is just envious that the gentleman that is a dedicated volunteer at Kentland also collects a paycheck from DCFD..really F'd up that you would laugh at someone being burned
 

Learn from it!
 

So what if he is a volly at 33. He is a fireman and all of us should be wishing him a speedy recovery. The fact that you laugh at another fireman being injured shows that you are truely a piece of garbage.
 

Rube only concerned with his image could not care less about the 3 firemen...he has got to go!!!!!!
 

What a disgrace !!!!
 

Why did they have to go in? Thats just a silly mistake made.
 

These guys didn't make entry. They went to the front and put the fire out! What are all you sissys whinning about? Some frickin plastic melted! The only reason you safety vests are crying is because it was on video. Why isn't there a huge thread on here about Cabin John burning a house down twice the other day? And you babies are crying about this??? I'm sure that homeowner would have appreciated some firemen that would have made entry to be at their house. Vest wearing PANSIES!!!!!
 

Fire happens, big whoop. TO those whom think it's dumb to get close to put out any fire are in the wrong line of work and are probably female....either in practice or biology.
 

I would expect to see this type of retarded action with a rual volli co. but this is a professional fire dept., come on rube your making us look bad... I mean worse!!!
 

Its the Rubes FAULT!!! If we were'nt riding ambulances this would never have happened!!
 

Hey, Stupid. The OIC of the company putting out the fire. The guy with teh white helmet on who catches on fire!! Thats teh guy whos a BIG TIME Vollie from Kentland I wasnt bashing him thats the way 33 does it. Motto, " We Finish What Others Cant""
 

You guys make me laugh, I'm sure everyone on here that is talking badly is the best fireman there is. I'm sure you have never stood out front from 50' away and let a house burn down while the homeowner watched. And I'm sure none of you guys have ever heard heavy fire, people trapped and run around the front yard claiming "mask malfunction". I know you have never said the words "Defensive Operations" over the radio and have never pulled out your pocket Risk/Reward chart to tell you what to do next. And I am absolutely positive that not a single one of you guys that are critiquing every little thing on here have ever advanced a 2in attack line into a piled mess in the front yard and then watched the house burn. Ya know, since you guys are so great and all.

But the thing I just can't figure out is how on this blog there are so many great fireman, but I never seem to find them on the fireground. You want to critique a video, how about you watch the endless stream of videos of you heroes burning down houses and being proud of it.

Its pretty obvious that the OIC was utilizing the opportunity to teach his guys how to correctly advance on a fire. Perhaps his department spends hundreds of hours a year in EMS training and not 10 in fire training. Maybe he was helping make sure that if there comes a time that "DEFENSIVE OPERATIONS" aren't an option, that his guys will at least know what to do, even if the rest don't. For those times when 50' away is not an option, and the trapped child's parents don't want to hear your thoughts on risk vs. reward.

Its pretty pathetic that anyone on here is bashing a group of guys because burning plastic fell on them. Its a real shame that some of our brothers were burned and you laugh because they volunteer.

It would sure be nice if some of you guys would critique your own actions the way you do other peoples, you might not like what you see.

But instead, here we are, blogging away behind the anonymous tag...talking about how great you are and regurgitation some BS article you read in Firehouse Magazine or heard at a seminar by Alan Brunacini. Unfortunately for you, it takes more than a stroke of the keyboard or a click on the Motorola to make a fire go out, which must be why I don't recognize your comments as matching up with your actions on the fireground.

Ahh the internet- be as brave as you want to be...
 

Don't worry folks, the Rosenbums have already started an inquiry and we'll be to the bottom of this in no time. We'll probably put EMS only people on the fire trucks and firemen on the sh*#boxes to see if that changes anything. Oh wait....
 

It kind of reminded me of the Steve Martin movie "Roxanne" where Steven Martin was the Chief. The guys were training and one of the guys coats caught fire. I am sure this was a big of an embarrassment to Chief Rubin as it was to the DC Fire Department-you hold a mockup demonstration and end up burning one of your own and I am sure the students of Galludet will rest easier after watching this.
 

Wow, everyone forgot a few brothers got burnt by accident. I hope they are ok and doing fine. Our profession is a dangerous one, even on publicity gigs or training events, so accidents are bound to happen. I bet the Sgt. who took the worst of it is going to get back on the wagon and move forward.
 

Wow...

First.. thank goodness our BROTHERS were not seriously hurt.

Tactics aside...

1- it’s a testament to our gear that we wear now, and an example to show other why to partner check...
2- At the same time a good example how limiting our gear can be. Limited field of view obviously played a part here. How far we have come without dealing with some basic issues...

.. there will be 1000 explanations why this happened and whose fault it is...blah blah blah... Bottom line for me; I am a Chief and I will show my fire fighters this. Sure it will be some discussion, but maybe we can all be a little safer from it. Thank goodness for a video camera.

Wasnt there another video of a fire fighting "demo" that went bad like this...
 

For the love of GOD

"DEFENSIVE OPERATIONS" does not mean EXTERIOR

You can fight a fire or you cant'
Offensive you put the fire out INTERIOR or EXTERIOR aka heavy duty

Defensive means let the fire burn and protect exposures. In this case the exposures were the crew. I hope the firefighters have a speedy recovery. Sh!t happens. It was an accident, not an on purpose. I hope that everyone can learn from this. Maybe that the backup man needs to Literally watch the back of this nozzle man.
 

I'm not sure which is more embarrassing, the video or some of the comments on here. How come nobody has asked why the crew was positioned so close before the nozzle was opened (this is a demonstration burn not a training fire), the fire stream pointed and sprayed low and only went up once, and they never checked above their heads before they entered, otherwise they would have seen the fire and plastic above them. Oh yeah, why did they enter on a friggin box? Why did the CO remain kneeling instead of checking on his or her crew after he was extinguished. Obviously there is more hate for the fire chief and EMS than common sense.

For the guy who asked why there was plastic on the box and maybe they didn't know it was there, isn't there another box set up beside the one burning? In fact, couldn't you see it before they went up to the fire. WTF dude? Get a clue!

The comparison to the Hillendale is that both crews lacked situational awareness. In Hillendale they went in before spraying water. This one they just didn't look up and knock it all down before they went in. They didn't catch on fire, the poly dripped on them and was burning. Same results, embarassing for the fire service.

I'm glad the crew is OK. I'm sad that there seems to be a culture that crawling inside a fire is OK? If there was somebody in there, yeah I get it. For a friggin prevention demonstration, the ignorance of the fire service showed through more so on these blogs than the video.
 

Thats the same effort Chief Crosswhite used on another Rescue of a Firefighter... but then he got a Medal for that one... Such BS.
 

Lucky no one got seriously hurt..

It's called an accident.. Maybe a bit of oversight on all parties.. From FC, DFC, Eng Co., Prop Maker.

You can see that the plastic was put up to redirect the sprinkler head output on BOTH props.. I assume clear plastic was used to show the roll over of fire on the ceiling. Also act as a faux wall.

Look on Dave's sight and see the other prop made by gov't testing lab. Same type of plastic...

Everything would have been fine if NO plastic was used or maybe plywood was used to act as the faux wall.

Again, I chalk it up as a mistake turned into an accident.. Nothing more or less..

I certainly believe 99% FF's from a salty dog to a rookie would have overlooked this.

Stop slinging MUD..and be thankful one of your brothers was not seriously injured or worse.
 

Oh my God, you guys are gay talking about this safety and defensive crap!!
 

Wow.....that could have been tragic. What a dope the Chief was..."Gimme that.....Put him out" Nice. And yes, gentlemen, the brothers WERE in the building. You can see their feet up on top of the floor structure. Instead of teaching the kid how to make a push, the boss should have been teaching him how to sweep the ceiling and floor. Not professional.
 

OMG WTF that was some silly stuff....the difference between an experiment and a demonstration...rube you made a clown of yourself ......HAHAHAHA big city shiip of foooooolsss
 

Two words... Risk Management. Between the cost of medical treatment(my estimate is between $1000-$2000), Gear replacement and/or cleaning(my estimate is several hundred $ to $1000), and the untold damage to at least one fire officer's reputation (evidenced by watching the crew OIC drag his F/F in to the burning demonstration by the SCBA bottle on his back!), this public safety demonstration has definitely cost more than it should have. Lucky thing most of the public in attendance were none the wiser. I'll end with this... "Risk a lot to save a lot, risk a little to save a little". Beyond that, I'd personally be embarrassed to have my interior firefighting gear dirtied in this manner.
 

Firefigting tactics, live fire training and common sense asside (with harshness and venom removed, I agree with most coments), the other not mentioned impact is to fire sprinkler advocates and the messages they are trying to communicate to the public by way of these effective live sprinkler demonstrations. A little less sensationalism by the reporting of Statter would have been of better service to the firefighters invoived and to the fire sprinkler advocates.
 

I am glad to see you think we are sensational.

More specifics, please. How about writing the story the way you would like it done.

You can't expect to invite the press to an event and expect us to ignore it when things don't go as planned.

The only reason I knew about this is because I was editing the demonstration to put on the site and saw it myself.

Hard one to overlook.

Sorry.

Statter
 

While there are many valid points here and some not, one that has not been addressed is that this can be a clear cut demonstration of how fire sprinklers can save the lives or prevent injuries to fire fighters too. This type of incident did not, and likely would/could not have occurred in a fire sprinkler protected building.

Let the comments begin on how fire sprinklers will put us out of the fire fighting business.
 

ENOUGH!! Who is this Anonymous guy anyway? Look here cowards, you are entitled to your opinion, but MAN UP!! If you are going to say it OWN IT!! Grow a set and stand by the shots you are taking. I am tired of all the Brother BS that is thrown around in the Fire Service. These guys are MY BROTHERS!! I refuse to stand by and let all you COWARDS bash them hiding behind the Anonymous tag. If you really cared about your "brothers" you would keep your shots to yourself. I see no purpose in taking shots at someone who ended up in the burn unit. If someone is truly my brother, I know I can say something to them Man to Man. MAN UP OR SHUT UP!!
 

The Rube said to immediately call the Fire & EMS Dept.
DO NOT call them!!!
Call the Fire Dept if you want some help.
The EMS part is why we're in this mess!!
DCFD -
 

Once Again "GREAT PR" For The District Of Columbia Fire Department! THANKS Chief! -As Far As The Fire Is Concerned...The Engine Company Proceeded As Any Engine Company Would Have...They Advanced A Charged Attack Line of Their Choice And Applied Water To the "Hot Stuff/FIRE"! The Only Issue Was The "APPLICATION OF WATER" By The "LINEMAN"! Big Fires Or Small Fires: Water Application Is "The KEY" To success Or Failure! Direct Attack/Indirect Attack "WHATEVER"! Sweep The Base Of The Fire People...Clear The Doorway...Move In On It! The Fire Tends To Go Out...AMAZING How That Happens With Proper WATER-APPLICATION. Lesson learned...No Big Deal! It Happens! Fires Burn! Firefighters Get Burned! It's Part Of The Profession! All You Can Do... Is Do Your BEST! -Either Way You Look At It...The Engine Company Put The Fire Out! NOT Pretty, But Effective! -P.S. To All You "FAKES" Out There That Call Yourself Firemen...Get A Life! -Dont Worry, The "REAL" Firemen Will Pick-Up Your Slack And Continue To Carry You When Your Standing In The Yard Watching A Family Burn-Up Because Your Too Scared To Do Anything About It! -Hope The "BROTHERS" Recover Soon! ...Just Another Day
 

At approximately 3 minutes and 12 seconds I saw all 3 firemen in some way inside the wooden box.

That (demonstration) fire could have been extinguished from outside of the IDLH environment without the use of SCBA from a safe distance.

Risk Vs. Benefit ?

Good luck with your speedy recovery...both firemen and DCFD.
 

As an officer in the DCFD I am unbelievably embarassed by this incident. I am also embarassed by the people on here defending these guys. It was plain stupid. That was about as dumb as climbing into a car on fire to put it out from the inside. Guys acting like that are going to do more damage to the way we operate than the Rube is ever going to do. Our way of Firefighting is being attacked everyday and these dumbasses just gave them even more ammo. And for you guys trying to defend them, remember there is no honor in stupidity. Putting someones house out is our job, trying to crawl into a plywood box is dumb.
 

I guess Rube will use this fiasco as a visual aid in his next "Lemons to Lemonade" seminar! Soon to be at a fire house not near you. Rube will be hitting the road again soon, I'm sure, to tell everyone else how THEY should be doing it instead of staying home looking after his troops. Nice. He sounded SOOOoo concerned in that video......NOT!
 

OK, we've all got an opinion or two or three on everything. Let's just learn from others experiences and make sure we never fall victim to the same "issues". None of us are perfect.
 

To all the "brave" fire fighters on here defending the actions of the "engine company" - Interior attack is something that DC, as well as most of the area departments, do on a daily basis. But.... please remember this was NOT an actual incident, especially one that demanded any risky behavior. This was an advertised sprinkler demonstration given to the local press for the benefit of the public! When all the eyes, ears, and camera lenses will be trained on you and your crew, it is not the time to have "fun" or "show off". Yes, Yes.... we know that they are a great fire fighting crew, but perhaps they were suffering from a bit of "macho man" disease. All one has to do is watch the sprinkler demonstration in College Park a day earlier and see what should have happened. Anyone out there who believes any thing different is short sighted and suffering from the good ole' tunnel vision. Just something to think about.

Lt. A.N. Onymous
 

Well, my heart goes out to anyone caught in an embarrassing situation. Been there myself and have the scars to s how for it. Hopefully everyone recovers and gets back to work. It is the good work we all do.

Regarding "Mr. Anonymous". Just who is that anyway? Must be related to "They". Discourse of this nature is ruining civilized interaction and discussion. Sixty Six comments as I write this and the only people on this entire list that have any guts are Dave Statter and the other two gentlemen that gave their names. Sack up boys and girls - have the integrity and the courage to identify yourself or keep your saddleback opinions to yourself.
 

I think the FF's did a great job of advancing the hoseline to put the fire out ! BUT we need to get back to the basics of fire fighting CHECK FOR FIRE OVERHEAD I also know we ALL get tunnel vision from time The best thing we can do is use this video as a reminder of safety first. I have seen houses saved and houses lost the best thing to remember is EVERYONE WENT HOME this comes from a career FF and a proud VOL FF !!!!!!!I also am not scared to post my name it is Jim PCVFD/NSB FIRE RESCUE
 

"I would expect to see this type of retarded action with a rual volli co. but this is a professional fire dept., come on rube your making us look bad... I mean worse!!!"

You paid guys think that because you get paid to do this job you are better than us "vollies" the only difference between us is the pay scale we should all be considered PROFESSIONALS but the "firefighter" that posted the above is just an egotistic punk who thinks he is better than us "redneck firefighters running around in our long coats and tall rubber boots"
 

From a totally compliant 1403 department perspective some factors were obviously overlooked.
This was a public relations/public education event. As such any and all aspects of fire control and full familiarization with the set design and makeup,materials used and expectations with the actual crew assigned for suppression should have occurred prior. This so everyone was on the same page. Critical errors ultimately have occurred which ultimately resulted in injured members. The DCFEMS Chief should have had a script and followed it,a couple of times he was out of synch, makes one wonder whether he was in front of the set or elsewhere. From the view of the camera man up until the plastic came down it was mostly good. This make no mistake was a live fire so 1403 should have been in place and
followed before ignition occurred. A entry team did indeed breach the opening so where was the safety line in case of an emergency. No sweep up and around the entry zone, Tunnel vision,lack of sizeup,good intent very poor execution. Not a great day for NIOSH to see this happening I expect. Best wishes to the members injured for a speedy recovery. We all learn from these types of incidents, one wonders what the real end result was for the students, which message will they remember,the burning members or that sprinklers actually work.
 

Preplans, Need I say more. Did at anytime, before the fire was started, did the firefighters take a look at what was going to burn in the room?
Please learn from their mistakes, there not the first ones to do something like this and Fore sure not the last ones.
Give the credit to the MC for this one. You know the OIC or the Safety Officer were watching.
Best luck to the burned firefighter, you will never forget this one.
p.s. one firefighter was fully inside this room, the other 2 were half way in. Replay it again and look closely.
 

OK guys fist off, volunteers tend to have more sense than this, we too are professionals. I don't want to beat up the jacka*s that mentioned volunteers but I have seen vollie companies that could kick ass over paid departments because we actually trained every week.

Second, whether you are planning to go in our not, NFPA 1403 (although it may not apply) should at least cross your mind (secondary water sources/back up teams)if not just some dam safety and self preservation sense. They decided to go in, wouldn't you? They missed the burning archway they were proceeding under and that is what screwed them. If they had hit that it would not have been a big deal.

As a chief office I hope I never have to tell one firefighter to put another out!
 

Speedy recovery for the injured FF. Certainly going to be a "lesson learned" for FDs across the country. I certainly learned why it is important to sweep the ceiling before advancing the hose line.
 

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL I can only imagine what comments would be on here had this happened to a vlounteer department. "rural" "traffic vest" "brother" LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL "My vagina hurts".... you guys are idiots.
 

It appears to me, by the comments posted, that many run their FD's in the shadow of Federal agenicies. Mind you that pencil necked goofballs whom can't even throw a spiral make theses wonderful guidlines you mention. 1403 this and ou812 that. Maybe these numbers are what you all in these departments (we know whom you are) are reciting while standing as "safe" distance from a burning structure. Safety, Safety, Safety. ever stop and thing about that mind numb mantra that so many modern day fire "officials" site. Maybe the act of trying to be 100% safe all the time has made our profession weaker and thus less able to handle even the most small fires effectively. Cut the safety BS and go get the GD fire. Fire goes out and everyone after that is safe. I would wager that many reading this have gotten more injuries by twisting their ankle or knee stepping in a hole in the front yard during their bold act of being safe in the front yard of a house fire. The very fact this whole thing is any kind of a big deal and many jump on here quoting NFPA numbers they just looked up on google goes to show how far the job has fallen, vollie or career. If you get in and get it quick, yes you may get a minor burn, bumps, bruises, or God forbid a scratch, but the fire goes down quickly, lives are preserved and post modern neo-fire gear wearers can stand proud in the front yard safe and sound.

-Greenshield
Proud DCFD D-bag
 

I cannot believe many of the comments here...we should learn as always...it does not matter if we are paid or volunteer we all fight the same thing...FIRE...valuable lessons learned...I hope they are all well...in my 20yrs I have not been to a perfect fire...it is to dynamic a process to believe we ever will have a fire without mistakes...so I hope the people making the rude and sarcastic comments never find themselves on the receiving end of one of these forums....
 

I'm sorry, at 1st I thought someone had found a long lost episode of the Three Stooges Fireman series. God I love Moe, Larry, and Curly (Shemp not as much)
I do hope all injuries heal quickly and egos get re-inflated soon.
 

Hey Dave,

Wouldn't it be a good idea to check IDs on here before allowing babies to post their negative, under-educated OPINIONS? A majority of these postings look like something you would find on a playground...really. These children are the ones standing on that same playground throwing sticks and stones. But wait, they claim to know it all...give me a break. Sh!t happens, plain and simple. Unfortunate as it is a firefighter got burned and I wish him a speedy recovery. That's what needs to be focused on. No Monday morning quarter backing, none of this " I told you so", If this and If that crap. Grow up people and stop using other people's misfortune for you to have a futile attempt at your moment of fame. Now hand me a baby wipe I have real work to do. Damn.
 

All I can say is, "Wow". I haven't watched the video. I just read some of the most amazing hate and rhetoric I have ever witnessed.

It's no wonder the fire service can't get funding and legislation in our favor. It's no wonder that when politicians think of who will control their disaster scenes, they think about making the cops the controlling agency.

This incident, like so many others in the fire service, reminds me of tigers eating their young. I'll watch the video later on, but the ranting and accusations, and just plain and simple hate toward each other is just amazing.

It used to be said that an argument in the fire service was just a little "brotherly disagreement". No, anymore, you all just can't abide each other. Its what is making us less professional and it's just plain sad.
 

1 - Give me SMART BRAVE Firefighters over BRAVE Firefighters any day!
2- These guys got so close they developed tunnel vission! All anyone had to do was to get the big picture, when you are raming down the throat of the fire it is very easy to loose the big picture
3- How does this look to the community? does this portray "profesionalism" whether they be vollies or career?
 

Big Fing deal about names, That is not the problem here. It is about the DC clowns that didnt have a back-up line, advanced into a shed, that they didn't need to, and NO ONE running to help these guys!!! THEY ARE ON FIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DO SOMETHING ABOUT THAT DONT JUST STAND THERE LISTENING TO YOURSELF TALK.Inproper training period! who cares about names when most of these people on hear are speaking the truth!
 

Electricians get electrocuted, Carpenters bang their fingers, and FIREMEN get burned...oh yeah, and SH!T happens. Grow up nerds....
 

The comments on this is proof that the fire service is at times more of a klan than a brotherhood. Why such bitterness between paid and volunteer. Good old fashioned rivalry is one thing but this is waaay past that. I also agree with Sgt. Alvarado, why so many anonymous postings.
 

I only hope the best for all firefighters involved and a speedy recovery. As a VFD guy I take offense at your comments that we are less qualified than paid. How many paid would give up their free time as we do for training and fire calls. Where was the RIT it is common practice in all training fires to have a RIT in my area.
 

The stupidity exhibited in this video is almost beyond words. A very sad and embarrassing day for the DCFD.
 

All Burtonsville volunteers!!!!!
 

This video has nothing to do going inside or standing outside a burning structure. Blah blah blah.... Do you seriously think that was a hardcore pipeman maneuver for a contained fire in a controlled environment? Have those guys ever been in a fire before? I wouldnt know, because just like a running back in the nfl after a 10 yard gain(who didnt need to celebrate),... ACT LIKE YOU'VE BEEN THERE BEFORE!!! :)
Who would have thought they needed a little more heat on their lids to look a little more salty! If you think that was an aggressive direct attack at the seat of the fire.. think again.. they were kinda slow.. maybe hesitant!
 

Very poor safety!! That being said, I am glad they are okay. We in the fire service should realize when being macho is going to get someone killed. One of the post talks about distance a nozzle is effective from. Why did this crew feel the need to enter or get close to a small box? We always want to get to the seat - even when unnecessary. Use this as a lesson learned!! This will fall on deaf and even burnt ears!!
 

The comments on this is proof that the fire service is at times more of a klan than a brotherhood. Why such bitterness between paid and volunteer. Good old fashioned rivalry is one thing but this is waaay past that. I also agree with Sgt. Alvarado, why so many anonymous postings.
# posted by erikinsacramento : October 10, 2009 11:58 AM
*********************************

I wonder how many Eriks there are in Sacramento? Still sounds kinda annonymous to me.
 

For the one who said " all Burtonsville volunteers" now how can that be when all those idiots called in sick to staff their tick house. Then again from watching that video obvious they don't follow the rules downtown just like they don't follow them in Montgomery.
 

ANybody on here saying that theres something all that wrong with the bustin of chops on here is wrong makes me wonder if you were the "cry to mommy" probie every firehouse hates. WAH WAH WAH, sombodies gettin called out for F'n up. If you're older than 30 and been in a fire station for more than 5 years, ya gotta learn to just shut your freakin pie hole when the bustin starts, it'll pass so much quicker if you don't enter the fray and try and justify yourself. Just take your lumps and wait for somebody else to screw up tommorrow and the heat gets off you and on to someone else. Jesus H. Criminey, go file a grievance ya panzy.
 

Lets see.
We have seen the Video.
We have seen waht has gone wrong.
Some are trying to turn this into a Volunteer versus Paid bashing.
There are a lot of posters that wont man or girls up and use their real names. Those are the ones that are most likly vest wearing yard guards. Caddy your comments were right on target.
So where does it go from here.
I would hope that a lesson is learned and the video is used as a training tool.
I know we will use the video as a training tool.
In closing Bart get better.
Lt T. Cosgrove Jones
Drill School
 

The day we stop learning from mistakes is the day we should find another job.

I wasn't there, and I have only the one camera angle to go off of, as a result my understanding of the situation is limited to what I could hear and see.

I don't wear a white hat, but I would like to think that a chief that noticed there wasn't a second charged line would have mentioned it to the Lt. or Capt. on the engine. I realize that it is a demonstration fire, but if you think that taking easy proactive safety measures don't make sense, then Brother, I don't want to work with you.

I'll plead guilty, and admit that if I had done a walk through I probably wouldn't have noted the plastic sheeting as a hazard, and if I had advanced my hose team into the room, I would have made a similar cascade of errors.

As a retired Super Model I don't get that excited when the press show up to a scene and begin filming, and I never check the evening news for coverage of the fires I've worked, in an attempt to catch myself on TV, and I've never called my buddies and told them to turn on the evening news to catch me putting out the fire while they were on the difficulty defecating medical run. But that's just me. I've heard that some people get especially excited in front of the media, and try to make themselves look dramatic. Maybe that's what happened here.

This was a case of friendly fire in the fire service. I say own up to your mistakes and learn from them. I have a buddy who recently used the term "rekindle" as the first unit on scene, and is still looking for his ass after the battalion chief helped him reconsider his actions.

May the healing be fast for those injured, and enjoy those moments with our families at home, and at our 2nd home, the station.
 

Anybody remember the guy in the Movie "Roxanne".... Hey you're on fire..Yea right, I'm not falling for that one again!
 

Nice job, brothers. Bashing injured firefighters while hiding behind "anonymous".

Leave your real name if you stand behind what you say. Otherwise, you're just another mouth.

Grow a set.
 

Look brothers, we were not there, so lets not be so quick to judge by watching 2 minutes of video. Instead of just being the "standby company" on the demonstration, maybe the Sgt. was utilizing this rare opportunity of knocking down a flashover to drill his men. It appears to me that the Sgt. was talking to his lineman, did anyone stop to consider maybe he was instructing them on the properties of a fully involved fire, and flashovers. If you look at the video closely, it appears that they barely broke the front plane of the box. Maybe with the 1-2 foot of plexiglass hanging down in front, they could not effectively knock the fire that was up high from thier position. Maybe the Sgt. or another member of the crew saw something from where they were that we could not see by watching the video, and he had them move up. Had it not been for the plexiglass melting down on top of them, this would not have become the mountain that it has. So we use this as a learning tool. Use it to teach, and show possible outcomes. I have not talked to anyone who was there or involved in this demonstration, I am merely offering a different perspective, as there are two sides to every coin, and I think the "they screwed up" side of the coin has been played out, and worn out on this blog. So take the video and use it as a learning tool, and leave it at that. Remember, we practice like we play, so the danger is always there. Stay safe, and lets wish a speedy recovery to the brothers.
 

Rule number 1 of PR: "never screw up on a slow news day"
 

Guys, lets us look at this as a perfect example of "tunnel vision" and not doing a 360 (looking at the big picture). Paid or volunteer, we can use this to learn and make our service better and safer.

Also, let's remember - RISK ALOT - SAVE ALOT !! RISK A LITTLE - SAVE A LITTLE !!! In all reality, what were we saving ?!?! I don't say that to be critical of these guys, I say it to remember to keep this in mind for the future.

"Never Forget" unfortunately came about because of 9-11 but I think it is a motto that fits EVERY firefighter in all aspects of our job.

Lastly, remember our # 1 goal, "Everyone goes home safe !!!".
 

Wow, i am continually amazed at the stupidity of the postings of those "Anonymous" experts. This was not a big deal. A BOX was built to demonstrate the benefits of a home sprinkler system. When the unprotected BOX was well involved, three well trained firefighters moved in to put it out so the other BOX could be used to show the protected benefit. Yes, a piece of plastic, that I think was there to enable the observers to witness the smoke banking down, caught fire and melted. This simply dripped down onto the crew. It took a few moments for them to realize that the material was on them and still burning. OK, but still not a big deal. They were in their full protective ensemble. One of them got burned, that is not good. But I am sure his burns are not severe or life threatening. Hero mentality, Hillandale Incident, idiots- all comments from the severely challenged, I am sure. I don't know these firefighters, I don't know where or if they volunteer, and I don't care. Come on people, grow up and own your comments. If you really are the be-all and know-all of the fire service, then stand proud. Put your name to it. But if you want to armchair QB, throw out negative BS, and be a coward, then do what your momma should have told you to do.......Keep your big "mouth" shut!!!

Captain Steve Alderton
(sorry this came through as Anonymous, trouble figuring out how to change that part. Hope the signature is as good)
 

It happens, next year just don’t use the plexi they used to contain the heat to set off the sprinkler for the sprinkler side of the demo on the free burn side of the demo.
 

100 comments are now listed for this story. I think this is a first for Statter's blog as I don't think he's had 100 comments posted for any one article.
 

for the fireman get well

as for anonymous,man up
put your name to it

paid or vol. its the same.
fire is fire


w.b.v.f.d
capt. g w cisco
 

"100 comments are now listed for this story. I think this is a first for Statter's blog as I don't think he's had 100 comments posted for any one article."

Actually we have had 100 comments or more a handful of times. The all time record for a single entry is 169 comments when we were the first to post the video of that collision between two St. Louis fire trucks.

Others entries that I found with a quick look that topped 100 are the PGFD ambulance billing controversy, a delayed EMS response in Loudoun, and the Oklahoma Highway Patrol vs. EMS story.

I believe we have posted a little more than 11,000 comments since STATter911.com started in May of 2007. Anyone have an idea which topic (over multiple postings) has received the most comments?

Statter
 

Dave,
this link is very relevant to the comments on this post.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IU1bzZheWk
 

What does this video have to do with EMS you idiot? You sound like the typical uneducated DCFD redneck Firefighter who continues to blame EMS on everything because you don’t know how to fight a fire. Just look around to some of the finest fire departments around this country that run first-rate fire and EMS services to their community. Why can’t DCFD do the same thing…because we have these back woods uneducated FF’s who can’t even past a basic EMT class.
 

Anyone ever heard of not letting the fire get behind you? Come on... I hope everyone recovers from their injuries and the damage quickly...
 

Truly a violation of live burn standards; no backup line, no safety officer, second fire officer without proper PPE. We damage our own credibility with stunts like this. Sadly the sprinkler message was lost as the focus turned to firefighters on fire. Lastly who designed this thing with a combustible plastic draft curtain ?. As for the firefighters best wishes for a speedy and full recovery.
 

DO NOT LET YOUR CHIEFS KILL YOU
 

Anonymous said...
What does this video have to do with EMS you idiot? You sound like the typical uneducated DCFD redneck Firefighter who continues to blame EMS on everything because you don’t know how to fight a fire. Just look around to some of the finest fire departments around this country that run first-rate fire and EMS services to their community. Why can’t DCFD do the same thing…because we have these back woods uneducated FF’s who can’t even past a basic EMT class.

Wow. For someone who wants to talk about being uneducated- People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. I believe you meant to say "pass a basic EMT class". Oh and the Youtube video that was posted, isn't necessarily in reference to EMS or Fire. It's about beating a dead horse. And for your edumacation tonight, I want you to Google "beating a dead horse" and finding out for yourself what it means.

But since I wouldn't want you to hurt yourself, I went ahead and did it for you. According to wikipedia, "Beating a dead horse" means "Flogging a dead horse", (alternatively "beating a dead horse" in some parts of the Anglophone world) is an idiom that means a particular request or line of conversation is already foreclosed or otherwise resolved, and any attempt to continue it is futile.

Have a nice day.
 

I try to make a point not to say anything hurtful or arrogant on these posts mainly because we are our own worst enemy's on destroying our brotherhood. With that said, I wish all a speedy recovery, and urge all of us that nothing is routine and please think before you act.
 

The firefighter who was burned happens to be my best friends father and if he is anything like his father it wasnt his fault it was a fire the unexpected will always happen and it did so everyone who is saying fire them and their idiots your oviously cocky and that is the most deadly downfall of firefighters
 

Its funny all the people saying they should not go in. UMM let me guess Nova or AA county fire want to be's. just keep wishing you were DCFD!!!
 

Okay Okay... I have a been a Volunteer for twenty years,and paid for ten and while watching this video my first question was "why make entry into an open trailer?"
Paid or unpaid we have the same training like it or not, and paid or unpaid... YOU cannot dispute the fact that was a dumb move. Have we not been trained to monitor our surroundings? Who's idea was the plastic anyway???
The only difference in a live burn drill is that WE light the fire all the same precautions still need to taken. While we may not need to employ a fast team for a container fire we should still think far enough ahead to have members in gear with a back up line!
THINKING will keep you alive brothers, two simple words: SIZE UP.
No one person there could have predicted the plastic would melt?
I would be will to place a bet the PROBIE did!
 

Now there's way too many comments to read all of them, b/c i don't have that sorta time but the one comment I want to say is about basic firefighting. If that had a been a fully inolved room, in real life i mean, I would hope the firefighter on the nozzle would sweep the doorway from FLOOR to CEILING to extinguish as much fire as he could before moving in on it. As you can see he didn't sweep the CEILING and it was still burining above them as they moved in on it, no condoning the fact that they moved in on a 4'x6' box I'm talking about real life scenarios. The officer should have noticed that and told the nozzleman to accomplish that before moving in on it. Don't always assume your nozzlemen are competent in this day and age some are just there for the paycheck!! Back to the basics training is what went wrong here. . . .
 

It's easy to be a Monday morning QB the big picture here is our guys got hurt. And for all you guys hollaring stupid take a good look inside and think about where you would have been if you OIC was there and if you say (back 50 ft) then you are a coward because we are supposed to back each other!!!!
 

" It's what you learn, After you know it all that count's". Live by this advice in the fire service and you might just get by!

David Pfeil "Retired" DCFD
 

My Brothers and Sisters:
This will be lengthy, for which I apologize, but as one of the Elders of our tribe, I must respond to this dialog. It is my intention to be helpful and constructive, bringing a bit less Heat and a little more Light to the discourse. I’ll address three specific subjects: Identity, The Incident and Your Dialog.
(1) Identity: I agree with those of you who said that if you have something constructive to bring to the discussion, you should identify yourself. Since most of you neglected to tell the rest of us who you are and why we should read your comments, I’ll set an example. I bring to the table 20 years in the Fire Service, 17 years as a fire equipment specialist and 10 years as a fire instructor and consultant. I am an adjunct instructor at more than a dozen municipal, county and state fire academies around the country, and a published author and staff member at Fire Nuggets, the online publication dedicated to firefighter competence and safety. And believe me, I’ve made my share of mistakes both on and off the fireground, but there isn’t time or space for that here.
(2) The Incident: First, let me add my voice to those who wish the injured firefighters a speedy recovery from their burns; that’s most important! But Mark Twain got it right when he said, “Why do they call it Common Sense? I find it to be most uncommon.” The evolution was not about how to fight a room & contents fire. It was a sprinkler demonstration. Period. Once the point had been made about how quickly the fire can grow, the prop could have been extinguished with a single nozzle set at a narrow fog pattern from a safe distance without entering the prop. It has nothing to do with bravery or machismo…it’s…well…common sense. Failing to do that, an alert safety officer in full turnout gear could have grabbed the hose, pulled the three guys out, lined them up and extinguished the burning plastic on them in about ten seconds. Simple as that.
(3) The dialog on Dave’s blog about this incident reveals an appalling amount of ignorance, immaturity and anger that frankly is a disgrace to the Fire Service. Whether you are a career firefighter with “issues” about volunteers, or a volunteer or paid-on-call firefighter with “issues” about career firefighters, my advice to you is the same: get over it. Your dialog is an embarrassment to us all. And for the record, the term “professional” firefighter should not be used simply to describe someone who receives a paycheck for what we do. The term best describes one’s Training, Experience and most important, Conduct…both on and off the fireground.
A final thought about writing in general and blogs in particular: if you find your words are so immature, so utterly lacking in benefit to others and frankly so embarrassing that you’re not willing to identify yourself, you might ask yourself why are you even participating? That’s it from here. Be well…do good work…and Stay Safe!
 

This entire debate is not centered correctly. The video is of a live burn demo focused on comparing a sprinkled to a non sprinkled room - it is not a training exercise. The fact that people keep referencing NFPA 1403 shows that there is a misunderstanding of what was actually being done here – this is not firefighter training, it is public education. In order to show the public any similarity to an actual fire it is necessary to provide some type of “wall” on the front of the room and it only makes sense to use the clear acrylic material in order for the public to get a better visual of what happens during a fire. For many of us who do these demo’s on a regular basis one of the first things we should tell the “attack” crew is that all they need to do it direct a stream into the room from the outside – this is NOT an interior attack demonstration! After the 8x8 room is extinguished from the exterior we then have the crew enter and put out any smoldering materials we have left. In comparison when we light the same fire in the sprinkled room and the system activates the firefighters then remove the clear acrylic material which is attached with Velcro, enter the room and use a water extinguisher to put out any hot spots that we might have. It is a shame that this demonstration was not conducted in a safe manner but please do not condemn the process, using this means to demonstrate to the public the effectiveness of residential sprinklers is the best way we can make a difference and hopefully reduce the more than 3000 civilian fire deaths we have each year...
 

Um, let's see where to begin with this one. First, I have no hesitation to go into any fire I need to. But, this job is dangerous enough as it is. We don't need to do anything that stupid to put guys in danger when it's not needed. It was a demonstration! And yes, the lt. did go into the little room. It wasn't until he was backing out that the plastic dropped on him. But they should have noticed when the wind blew the fire probably 5 feet out of the room. I don't know about the rest of you, but I remember years ago when I was starting, being taught "risk a lot to save a lot and risk little to save little." There is nothing to save here because it was a DEMONSTRATION! Just a poor example from guys that should know better.
 

Poor planning on DFC & FC, no safety precautions, fire tactics not so good. Speedy recovery.
 

Score one for a bunch of Union Professional Firefighters! Lets see hmm i think i could have put that out without getting the plastic on me> guess why because we did the same demo at our department and the outcome was fire out no injuries no chief without gear on getting in harms way. No reason to move in on this fire pretty stupid.
The rube is smarter than this. If not mistaken he was just the narrater not the IC on this.
 

And we continue to shine - http://www.wusa9.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=92258&catid=158
 

Dave,
Enough already. Put it to bed. Its redundant and predictable
 

Im pretty sure the OIC was not "dragging his man" in by his bottle. He was likely giving him some help moving forward while keeping a hand on his man. Thats what officers should do, in practice and in battle. My Loo is great and always has a hand on us or the line in the smoke and helps move the line forward.

Besides, if you define drag, thats usually a pulling motion, not a pushing motion, tool.

I hope ya feel better buddy. Accept the the script for pain killers, belive me it helps!
 

Safety Officer?????
 

Uh, WOW. I'm recently(Vol) FF I certified, so I'm no expert. However, it seems a SERIES of mistakes were made which is utterly surprising from a Chief of that "supposed" caliber. Who can you trust to be with you and, in my case, continue training? Did the very basic of basic fire fighting go out the window on this one?
 

WEAK!!! RUBIN FOR PRESIDENT!!!
 

"ANybody on here saying that theres something all that wrong with the bustin of chops on here is wrong makes me wonder if you were the "cry to mommy" probie every firehouse hates. WAH WAH WAH, sombodies gettin called out for F'n up. If you're older than 30 and been in a fire station for more than 5 years, ya gotta learn to just shut your freakin pie hole when the bustin starts, it'll pass so much quicker if you don't enter the fray and try and justify yourself. Just take your lumps and wait for somebody else to screw up tommorrow and the heat gets off you and on to someone else. Jesus H. Criminey, go file a grievance ya panzy."

I'm not sure who this anonymous poster was, but since it infers that this is "just bustin' chops", makes me think that it might have been regarding my earlier post.

Since I'm not a probie and I'm well over thirty, with thirty years in the fire service, I'm pretty sure I know the difference between an angry mob and "bustin' chops". And I'm not at all hiding behind any psuedonym, and I'm happy to discuss the whole incident civilly rather than by calling names and making unfounded accusations.

Maybe instead we need to figure out what went wrong, support our injured brothers, learn from what happened here, and not repeat the mistakes. Then the huge point: move on.
 

My first thought was where is the Back-Up Line and Safety Officer? Remember "OUR" life safety always comes first! Please review all of NFPA 1403 before and during any live fire exercises.

Finally, it's very easy to point the finger, and to be the Monday morning quarterback. Hopefully we've all learn something from this event and move forward.

National Public Safety Week is far too important to us. The fire safety messages we spread for the positive, far out weights this black mark!

"Take Care and Be Safe"
 

All this "non training" event did was show the public that even in a stupid sprinkler demo our EGOS won't allow us to put a fire out intelligently. I know the thought process: Let's show the public how tough us firefighters are and climb right into the devils mouth and start punching him in the tonsils. We can do that... we're firefighters.

A guy could have put 20 gallons of water on that from 30 feet away... except that's not EXCITING enough. (for the public, OR us)

And to the guy saying it wasn't a training evolution it was public education- why the hell wasn't it made into a training evolution? They're doing a live burn and OBVIOUSLY needed the training.

Okay- I'm being a bit of a jerk by saying that but fact is this is an excellent demonstration of how tactical entertainment at even the smallest scale can result in bad things happening. Remember offensive benefit from defensive positions? Fire is put out by water mingling with heat- not firefighters.

Want proof? The sprinkler did a MUCH better job of controlling the fire than the firefighters did.