STATter 911

I am sorry to hear that brothers were injured, however this was totally PREVENTABLE!

Get well guys!
 

Sorry to be blunt. but stuff like this is bound to happen when you blatantly drive through red lights without slowing down. Driver needs a reprimand. And Captain for letting him drive like this.

Eight lives where unnecessarily put at risk, as well as the extra property damage to the building on fire because they couldn't get there.
 

Who would have thought that St. Louis has volunteer firefighters driving their hose wagons.

Just stirring it up.
 

Humans make mistakes but I hope the driver will think about if a passanger car with a family was there as he came thru the red. Being struck by another rig and bieng in trouble with your supperiors is a lot better than Manslaugter charge or charges.
 

AS A TWENTY YEAR VOLUNTEER IT WOULD BE UNDERSTANDABLE TO BE UPSET BY THE VOL. DRIVER ASSUMPTION BUT THE ANONYMOUS WRITER PROBALLY HAS THE SAME MENTALITY AS THE DRIVER WHO RAN THE RED LIGHT. I SURE THE DRIVER HAS HAD OTHER BEHAVIORAL ISSUES IN HIS PAST. PEOPLE ARE CREATURES OF HABIT.
 

What does being a volunteer have to do with anything? Maybe they should fire their reckless know-it-all paid firefighters and get some dedicated, well trained, responsible volunteers....

In any case, this incident was inexcusable. Signal is clearly red. Driver should be reprimanded without a doubt. I think the case could be made for termination. I bet the overturned apparatus is totaled. Great video for apparatus training lectures though....
 

sLLOW dOWN AND SAVE LIVES AND SAVE HOMES TOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Why were they going in different directions to the same fire????????
 

Why were they going in different directions to the same call???????
 

To the guy who made the comment about Volunteers....... I know many volunteers who are more professional than some guys who are furtunate enough to take a pay check for it
 

if it was your house that was on fire you be wanting them to get there as fast as they can so look at it that way
 

WOW!! Did not even slow down. If both were going to same call one truck was lost. Hope all gets well soon!!
 

Nice work on the RED LIGHT! Can we say lack of training...Good work, and dont even joke about vollies..
 

Good comment about going two different directions. A few of us in our FD office watched and we think the one coming toward the camera may have been trying to turn left at the intersection. For whatever reason (speed, brake failure), he could not make the turn.

IN NO WAY does this excuse the manner in which he blew through the red light, however.
 

Score one more for "blind-corners." And I can understand coming from different directions... we do it often with staging orders and setup from IC. BUT we also have a hard RED STOP policy that only allows us to proceed through stop lights and stop signs after first coming to a complete stop. I'm just glad they didn't hit cab-to-cab. It could've been a lot worse.
 

Sorry for the pain this all caused, but the remark about volunteers shows the low IQ of some 'old school' smoke eaters left out there. Most volunteer departments not only take control of the intersection before continuing on, but slow even on a green light. Stop taking pot shots and take responsibility!
 

Wow. Should have never happened. Speedy recovery to those affected.

To the guy talking smack about volunteers... thanks for your opinion. BTW... (pretend I'm talking to a 3rd grader) That's a "Fire Engine". "Hose wagons" where pulled by horses many years ago. Jeez... your IQ is showing.
 

Hey kids, grow up and quit hiding behind "anonymous said" This is a true lack of driver trainning and the lack of safety programs. This is not a Paid vs. Volunteer issue.
Volunteer Firefighters are just as well trained and PROFESSIONAL in my area as Paid Firefighters.
Chief Ed Phillips(37 years of volunteering)
Allen Volunteer Fire Department, Inc. Concord, N.C.
 

I agree they should of stoped at red light. For the person that made a joke about volunteer firefighter drivers. All of mine go through a course and they have to stop at all red lights and stop sgns.
 

I hope everyone recovers soon. To be blunt, this accident was totally preventable. The driver with the red should have slowed down and / or stoped for the red light. This accident goes to show that you can never assume that the roads are clear even if you have the green light. There is a reason that driving to or from a call is the most dangerous part of our job. And to add in on the Vollies comments, I've seen more paid firefighters in accidents the vollies, it's all in how you drive.
 

In my branch of the US Military, we would refer to this flagrant safety violation as a dereliction of duty, and if ONE person (civ or unifored) was injured, the driver of this apparatus would be subject to court martial or DD.

I would hope that the fire department has policies that require something stronger than a "reprimand."
 

I'm a volunteer in a suburb of NYC and I've been driving for 40yrs and never had an accident. The volunteers on Long Island are as professional as any pro and a large number of LI volunteers are NYC firefighters . Shame on the guy that thinks so much of himself to make the uncalled for comment about volunteers.
 

A pay check is all they got, the volunteer's have just as much training if not more.Its only common sense to slow up at a red light. A pay check only makes you dumber in this job
 

Apparently, "Anonymous Oct. 20" is just a trouble-maker; we all know his type. It's that narcissistic arrogance which causes conflict and tears departments apart. I'm a professional volunteer who operates all apparatus in a combination department and have never even scratched the paint. Focus on the problem and solution and take your venomous pejoratives elsewhere. The quint driver is clearly at fault and needs retraining along with some severe disciplinary measures.
 

CAN'T FIX STUPID
 

vollys suck
 

Instead of slamming any volunteers or the drivers maybe we should look at how we can prevent this from happening again. I once heard that we can not be rescures if we become victims. Any more driving any apparatus is not a one person job (thanks to the new cars out there that prevent outside sounds from getting inside) Everone in the apparatus needs to be on the lookout - forward - backwards and both sides. I do hope well to all. Safety Begins With Us.
Chief Jim Wingert - 32 years with volunteer and combaination
 

as being in the same state that this happen in, it affects everybody, but very preventable. being a volunteer myself for 16 years and instructed many on safe driving emergency or not i tell them of the risks that come with driving. in all 37 years that my department has been formed we have never been involved in a major incident like this
 

Its amazing how everything in todays fire service ends up as "Career vs. Volunteer" Hope all the guys have a speedy recovery.
 

I would have agreed with him running the light had he slowed down a bit and looked both ways, ours engineers down here just step on the air horns wind up the q and touch the brakes a bit and look both ways, this engineer hit the brakes when he saw the second Ladder Co. if he had just kept going the collision could have been avoided since he didn't stop for the light, however if he had stopped for the light he could have also avoided the collision, and one was going on in a different direction than the other because he was probably heading around to the next block to catch a plug and lay supply.
 

to the guy critisizing the IQ of the guy who called them hose wagons, your IQ should be checked because neither of these are engines, see the big ladder on the top of both of these trucks, those are called Quints!
 

I can see here that the paid firefighters are always ready to jump all over the volunteers.They always seem to forget were they started.No matter what time of day or all night. Then go to work all day.We are alway there 24/7. You all forget THERE IS NOTHING GREATER THEN THE HEART OF A VOLUNTEER.Thank god no one parishes.
 

Can any one say EVOC. We are their to protect and saves lives not but lives in danger. Slow down. You do no one any good if you do not make it to the call.
 

Stupid and poor training results in this accident. Responiblity people we are their to protect and save lives not cause injuries or kill people. Can you say Emergency Vehicle Operation Course?

Mike Carneglia
Retired FF NJ
 

Anyone notice the civilian at the 2 o'clock position of the intersection POINTING up the road trying to SHOW ONCOMING TRAFFIC? Sad, but strike two.
 

wow both at fault i beleive it looks like constcution zone?
 

Been a firefighter for 42 years, an instructor for 25 years, always teach my pupils to stop at all intersections. Being a volunteer has nothing to do with this accident. EVOC training does. RBW
 

everyone just needs to follow the sop's and the law just like seatbelts
 

Very simple rule to live by, we did not cause the emergency that we are responding to, therefore there is no reason as to why we should slow down at any given intersection controlled or not.
 

Eight of our Brothers were injured due to negligence of four personnel. The two Officers and the two drivers are at fault. Green does not mean GO FASTER when you cannot see the cross traffic. Red means you SHALL SLOW DOWN to adjust for traffic right of way. Common Sense!!! Volley, Career, Part Timer, WHO CARES! The St. Louis Fire Department does not have Volunteers! They haven’t for quite some time! Just look up their history on their web site. Four of our Brothers were hurt! NEEDLESSLY! We are all family, Volley, Part Paid, Career! Everyone Goes Home! I hope you all have heard of that phrase! That is rule one, no matter where you work or if you get paid or not. Everyone Goes Home! Practice the Safety Rules, use Common Sense, and Watch Each Other’s Back! We are all Brothers and Sisters in the Fire Service, WE ARE ALL Members of an elite group of people! We Are Firefighters and we are a Family!
 

Just a correction to those who assume the worst. I'm a 11 year St. Louis FF. Although I wasn't there for first hand knowledge, the word going around our firehouses, the breaks of Engine 28 who appeared to run the red light in the video just had break work performed on the apparatus. Keep in mind, these are 20 year old pieces of equipment that get run hard daily, on top of that, all our pumpers are quints, we carry aerial ladders. So the added weight along with running hard and age, you can't expect them to run like new or equipment that runs 2 or 3 runs a day. Most apparatus in St. Louis run between 6 and 12 runs daily.
Engine 28 is the busiest pumper in St. Louis, running around 3,500 in 12 months (EMS and Fire).

God Bless and stay safe out there.
 

Check out the guy on the right side of the screen. He points at the oncoming ladder truck and then walks away after the crash. What a loser, is doesn't appear the he or the guy in the lower right even care about the firemen involved in this crash. They could have at least helped the guys out of the rig !
 

Would it not be prudent to wait until the facts come out to make any decision or proclamations on fault and remedial action? In this day and age of instant pictures and information we all too often jump to a decision or point of view without all the data. A healthy post-mortem including all the data: maintenance records, driver and officer interviews, previous performance reviews, witness accounts, physical evidence should all be assembled and from this some informed knowledgeable resources can make a decision on fault. We all hate people who witness our work without all the data making performance proclamations; like the news media, let’s not be them.
Ed
 

I hope all FireFighters get well. True..this could have been preventable..I noticed that the driver of the aerial ladder did not stop at the stop-light. I also want to bring up the idea of the "opticom" system..I saw that this program wasn't installed on the street light..and maybe in the future..along with safe driving; accidents could be prevented.
 

Glad no serious injuries. In our SOP's, we must come to a full stop at a red light, then proceed once it is safe. Amazing the driver of the truck that was hit didn't even slow down, especially because it looks like he was approaching a "blind" intersection (see all the buildings in the way?). Amazing video.

Driver should be reprimanded but I don't think terminated. We all make mistakes. You can bet this video will be part of EVOC classes.
 

At my department our policy states that when approaching a negative intersection the apparatus must come to a stop and proceed when the intersection is clear. When approaching a positive intersection the apparatus must slow to a speed that would allow the vehicle to stop or avoid an impact. If this collision had occured at my department both drivers and officers would be facing unpaid time off and possibly termination based on the results of the accident investigation. I hope these guys recover from this unfortunate incident. There is absolutely no excuse for putting your firefighters or your public at risk from reckless driving.
 

Did anyone else notice the guy on the right pointing to the truck that appears to have the green???? Or the poor guy that thought he was going to get wiped out in the lower part of the screen?
 

This should have never happened.You are supposed to stop at all red lights even if you are running emergency traffic.The captain and the driver should be punished for this.
 

Ouch.....He will never do that again. He wont be drivin for the fire dept.
 

To the guy that gives no respect to volunteers: I have been a volunteer firefigher for 4 year now and I stop the engine at ever red light. So I think you need to get your facts together. For the guy that said now-it-all paid firefighters: We are all in this together like a band of brothers so be more respectful. To the driver of the engine that ran the red light: You will probably be put on probation, but when you get back slow the F*** down. Getting to a total loss fire 30 seconds faster is pointless. Think about how much longer it takes to slow down and yeild at red lights. (Maybe 10-20 seconds for the entire trip) If you want to get faster respons time be able to put you gear on faster. You can save yourself around 20 to 60 seconds if you go back and work on the basics.

Everyone be safe and buckle up!
 

paid on call and volunteers out number you "career" firefighters we go through the same training as you "career" ladies do
 

The driver who ran the red traffic signal did so without a clear line of sight, reducing speed and approaching cautiously. If he had there would have been ample time to stop avoiding the collision All of which are taught in CEVO.

If this had been a civilian vehicle broadsided by the offending apparatus a fatality may have occured.

Not to worry, eventually training and responding deaths and injuries will exceed those occuring as a result of firefighting.

The mindset's got to change.
 

Getting into an accident while on duty is one of the worst experiences anyone could go through on the job, we need to learn from these mistakes but we also need to remember that we all have made them.
 

Are we all too quick to judge I wonder what the maintenance record is on the rig maybe he blew the light or maybe he had mechanical failure, all we see is the video .
 

Everyone is quick to judge, I just hope that no one has a camera watching you on your 3 or 4 smells and bells calls. St. Louis is a busy area and in fact the 28's has over 3600 calls a year. They are under paid under staffed and have huge racial problems. I would love to see anyone of you monday night quarterbacks put up with St. Louis. (the murder capital of the contry) let the investigation come out before you pass judgement.
 

Guys get well soon i started out as a vol now i am paid full time ff if someone in our small nc fire dept would have done this there would be hell to pay someone would lose there job vol or full time it should of never happened maybe even two jobs would be lost what was the capt thinking
 

Does not the St. Louis F. D. repond cold (no lights-no sirens) unless otherwise directed,
specifically to avoid traffic mishaps?
 

Hey I am tired of hearing all the crap vol ff get verses paid i started out as a vol now i am paid our vol ff get the same training as the paid staff this is a lack of training it should of never happened YOU CAN NOT BLOW THRU RED LIGHTS what was going on inside of that truck that flipped befor this happened paid or vol you have to pay attention to the road and conditions around your vehicle
 

This is just blattantly stupid. When incidents like these occur they affect all of us weather we are paid or volunteer. Doing stupid thing also lead to more rules and regulations. Stop and think that could have been your family going through that intersection. Oh I guess it was, it was some of our brothers. Stay safe and think out there.
 

TO ANYONE AND EVERY ONE MAKING NEGATIVE COMMENTS ON THIS SITE. I HAVE BEEN ON THE JOB FOR THIRTEEN YEARS, AND HAVE BEEN THE ONE ON THE OTHER END THESE TYPES OF CRITICISMS. EVERYBODY( AND I MEAN EVERYBODY) SHOULD BE PRAISISNG THESE GUYS AND ANY OTHER MEN AND WOMEN WHO PUT THERE LIVES ON THE LINE FOR JOE BLOW EVERYDAY, THAT IS JUST WHAT WE DO. CRAP HAPPENS AND I AM GLAD EVERYONE IS O.K. THINGS LIKE THIS ARE GOING HAPPEN PERIOD. LET IT GO AND I WOULD LIKE TO THINK WE ARE ALL GROWN UP ENOUGH TO KEEP THESE COMMENTS TO OURSELVES, BECAUSE IT REALLY SUCKS TO READ COMMENTS FROM " THE BROTHERHOOD" TRUE BROTHERS WOULD NOT THROW ANYONE UNDER THE BUS, INSTEAD WE SHOULD OFFER WORDS OF ENCOURAUGEMENT, OR SAY NOTHING AT ALL. STEVE NFD
 

Not everyone is perfect. This is a bad deal,and glad to hear all are ok. The driver is at fault.You cannot blame the CAPT. No one knows what was being said to the driver, by the Capt. when this accured. We are all firefighters, some of us just get paid.
 

To the person leaving the comment about a volunteer firefighter driving the hose truck, if it is a volunteer department that is called to the fire then they are the only ones to drive their truck.
 

Responding "cold" probably wouldn't be a bad idea. Especially for nuisiance calls.
 

actually im a volunteer firefighter for one department and a paid firefighter for another which we are all trained the same but st. louis firefighters are all paid ST. LOUIS FIRE DEPARTMENT DOESNT HAVE ANY VOLUNTEERS trust me i would know i live in st. louis right by pumper 10 they are called smeals and they are not engines they are pumpers. pumper 10 is located near st. louis and sarah streets they are both staffed with excellently trained firefighters so shut up when telling them they did a bad job because it was a freak accident. YOU KNOW YOU WOULD WANT THEM GOING JUST AS FAST TO YOUR FIRE IF YOUR KID WAS TRAPPED IN THE THIRD STORY OF A BUILDING FIRE AND YOU WERE TOO BIG OF AN IDIOT TO GO GET YOUR KID YOURSELF.


so get it out of your minds that they are volunteers cause they are not ST. LOUIS FIRE DEPARTMENT DOESNT HAVE ANY VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTERS
 

Possibly there was a break malfunction, but that will be easily determined in the investigation. If there wasn't, the driver of the quint that ran the red light should be severely reprimanded for driving so recklessly, and even the driver of the quint that hit him should get a lesser reprimand for not slowing at an intersection, even if the light is green. We have to learn that we cannot just blow through intersections. No one seems to yeild anymore, so we have to protect ourselves.

As for the volly vs paid banter. It definitely shows there are a lot of jealous volunteers out there, who find it necessary to hate those of us getting paid for what we love to do. The one writer said something crazy to stir up trouble and it surely didn't take long for his stupid comment to show how envious so many volunteers are.
 

Tomorrow, I gather my SFFD engine crew together and this will be a mini-drill on what not to do when driving code 3. This video should be MANDATORY viewing by all FF and officers, whether volunteer or paid. And as for the volunteer crack, paid drivers are just as guilty.
 

The person who said that the volunteers are envious is not speaking for anyone that I know. Volunteers are proud of what they do. The only problem we have is with the few paid ff who treat us as if we were beneath them. Why everybody can't work together is a problem mostly due to ego.
 

Its funny to me that a near trajedy can turn into a bashing of Paid Vs. Vol fireman all througout this blog. Can you just all read back and see that while your intentions are to talk about the accident, you have all gone off the beaten path to speak your feelings of whichever type of firefighter that you are not? This was clearly an error in judgement and clearly a lack of common sense. You can train any individual to drive, but the individual has to be willing to adhere to all of the rules. My department trains to stop even at Green lights at Major intersections and to slow at minor ones. We stop completely at signs and red lights and blast the air horns to let anyone in hearing distance know that we are there. I think everyone should be doing something similar. Also, if there are two in the same area they should have been comminucating location to each other as my company does to give proximity to that intersection.

Anyways, I am a Vol and I have lots of friends who are paid. I am not envious of them one bit. I am not Jealous of them one bit. When our training records are compared, mine doubles theirs in size but when our hearts and determination are compared the fact of the matter is we are firefighters and we are brothers and there is no other profesion paid or VOl that has that type of heart, that type of courage, that type of passion, and that type of determination. So while the last person to post feels jealousy is there hes crazy. He's clearly just angry that we can do whatever he can do, we can go wherever he can go, and we are trained just as well if not better than he and the most importantly that we give our time and risk our lives to save others lives and properties and we do it for absolutely nothing. And the end of the day, at the end of the year, he's looking for a raise. At the end of it all, we are looking as Vollies to make a difference for some person and we do it because we love to, not because we get paid to.
 

Even with all of the ASS-u-ming going on, the truck with the red light screwed up! I looks to me like he/she tried to veer right (or Left depending on your point of view)at the last moment! Regardless of any other situation, the quint blowing the red was at-fault. This comment is made by a vollie FF, and an EMT that drives patients in the back of an ambulace as a proffesion!
 

To the ones commenting on why the two companies were going in different ways: E-10 was traveling north on Taylor to the fire scene (which was one block north of where this accident happened) E-28 was traveling east on MLK, toward Newstead, to make a hydrant at Aldine and Newstead. The fire was between Taylor and Newstead on Aldine, this is why one was going north and the other continuing east another block. The "swerve" you notice E-28 do just before getting hit was the reaction of the driver as he noticed E-10 on his right side, but it was too late. Also, you are looking west on MLK from this camera view, there is a left turn arrow on MLK to turn from MLK to Taylor from both directions, so you can't judge from this angle if E-28 had a green light or not coming east just by seeing that it was red viewing west. It is very possible that E-28 had a green light and E-10 had a red, this video does not show substantial proof in either companies favor. Hopefully the investigation will find out what happened.
 

Who cares if this is a volunteer department or a paid department. In my opinion we are (or should be) on the same team. The volunteer vs paid argument is juvenile, grow up.
If you feel so strongly about this, then stand up and sign your name (not "Anonymous").

S. Clayton
HFD firefighter/paramedic
 

I have had the honor to serve as a Volunteer Firefighter for one fire district in my city/county for over 5 years and the privilege to serve as a Career Firefighter for another district in my city/county for over 1 year.

In my city/county there are 2 Career FDs, 17 Combination FDs and 1 Volunteer FD. Now with all of these different peoples, personalities and policies, there is one thing every FD here follows; DUE REGARD! That is drilled into our heads from day one.

Now I do not know who is at fault in this accident and whether or not it will be attributed to mechanical failure, human error, or a mix of both. What I do know is the comments back and forth about Career Firefighters & Volunteer Firefighters in completely unnecessary and shows a lack respect.

Now I have heard all of the same comments here and they really irritate me to no end. This ridiculous, GROW UP! Ladies and Gentleman, this is the year 2008, we lose approximately 100 of our own every year and you all are acting like school children.

2 Trucks companies on the way to an emergency were involved in an accident. 8 of our own, while having minor injuries, lived BEACUSE THEY WERE WEARING THEIR SEATBELTS! At least we know that one policy was being followed. As for the rest, we can speculate at best, but until I read the actual report, that is all I can do.

As for the individuals who made the comments about Volunteer Firefighters;
1-You best remember that you are outnumbered, more VFF's than CFF's.
2-Also just about every Career FD in this country started out as a Volunteer FD.
3-In my opinion, if anyone is willing to go through training for however long is required, then put on a suit of clothing and take a hose line into a structure that is involved in flames, well they are a FIREFIGHTER! Volunteer, career, On-Call, Contract, Part-Time, whatever!

Get over this Career FF vs. Volunteer FF trash. We need to be concentrating on education, prevention, legislation, training, skills, certifications etc.

When people read all the back-n-forth bickering, it is no wonder that the only time they usually pay attention to us, is when we make the news in a bad way. Come on people... WE ARE FIREFIGHTERS! We lead the way! We are the ones that people call for everything big & small... Be cause we do it all.

Career Firefighters, let me tell you, try serving as VFF in a community that cannot afford anything else, where there funding may be 100K if they are lucky Where they have to balance family, work and fire department, especially in this day and age where we are all required to train and prepare for more than ever before. Where you have to provide more for a lot less. Where you may get injured or die in the Line of Duty and there will be no department benefits, health insurance, etc. to cover you or your family.

And same goes for Volunteers, we all know that there are some CFFs that think they are better than VFF's and always will. You will most likely never change their opinions. But also remember that Career face their own set of problems, constant understaffing, underfunding, too much mandatory overtime, personnel and benefit cutbacks, lay offs, government always trying to find a way to make them do more, but give them less or just taking it away and also having to do more with less.

Finally we all usually have the politicians who have no idea what is required to do the job, but think they know best on how the FD should operate.

SO GROW THE HELL UP and SHUT UP! I am so tired of this, you wo constantly do this trash talking, make the rest of us who just want to do our jobs, whether Volunteer or Career, harder for us.

Instead of running your mouth (or moving your fingers) why not take that energy and put it to use, like trying to get construction companies to mark truss buildings, politicians to give us more, communities to support us more and departments to recruit for more. There, that is my soapbox today.

If any of you take umbrage, feel offended, or just... whatever well my contact info is below, feel free to look me up. I have no problem looking you in the eye and saying it, but I warn you I will not be as polite and you will hear my accent.

From,

rechristian@insightbb.com

FF Christian-Career
EFD-Sta.2 Plt.3 Eng.2

Sgt. Christian-Volunteer
PRPFD-EngCo.5 Res.5/Eng.5
 

Just letting everyone know that St.Louis is a 100% paid department, there is not one volunteer on the department.
 

Enough said.

Just be careful!
 

To the person who said why were they coming from different directions?
St Louis is a big City and they have 30 Firehouses they could have been coming from a different run.
Not all Fire trucks respond from the same Firehouses
 

A-Men Brother ^
 

Now thats what i'm talking about.
 

I DONT CARE IF YOUR A VOL OR PAID FF SLOW THE HELL DOWN. IT BEEN PROVEN TIME AND TIME AGAIN. 5 MORE MINUTES ENROUTE ISNT GOING TO SAVE ANYONE OR ANYTHING.YOU HAVE TO GET THERE TO DO ANY GOOD. LETS SAVE LIVES LIKE OUR OWN TO START WITH.
NEBRASKA VOLUNTEER
 

The last time I checked, there was no such thing as an amateur firefighter. All firefighters are considered professional firefighters, whether they render their services for free or receive a paycheck for them. Getting paid doesn't make you stupid, nor does being a volunteer. The last time I looked, this was supposed to be a brotherhood. We are all supposed to be brothers there to stand by each other come what may. Instead from what I have read, we sound like a bunch of children. There are possibly 8 brothers in this video who are injured. The reasons for these injuries are several. The main one is the department failed them. The department is supposed to have policies and guidelines on responses. Either the driver was unaware or in blatant disregard of said policies. The officers failed. They failed for not taking steps to correct this and allowing it to happen. As so many have pointed out on here, this probably wasn't the first time the driver has displayed an aggressive driving behavior. Third, the brothers failed each other. Instead of looking out for each other, they just kept their mouth closed about the irresponsibility of 1 brother, and instead put the lives of 7 in danger. If a person can't drive or they repeatedly violate policies that endanger the lives of whole crews, say something. Do it anonymously if you have to, but say something. Trucks that wreck don't go to fires, and neither do their crews. Trucks that wreck put volunteer houses out of business sometimes due to lawsuits, and force paid departments to let personnel go to cover costs. In an era of ever increasing job and funding cuts, don't give the politicians anymore excuses. Stay safe out there, and stay low.
 

Hey all you dummies out there carreer and volunteer:

DEAD HEROES SAVE NO LIVES!!!!!

If you dont get to the fire then you cant put it out.
 

Oh by the way guys, all the training in the world is not going to help you unless you can teach COMMON SENSE, which seems to leave as soon as the bells ring!!!!
 

Hope all the brothers are ok or getting well GOD bless. Must have been someone from 1619.PGFD
 

Volunteer or not, this could have been prevented. To the so called anonymous "Brother" ...Why would you make assumptions that it was a volunteer that just goes to show your mentality.People like you should not be in the fire service.
 

I'm not a Volunteer fan because they do is sit in class all day getting certifications and they think that makes them a firefighter. Apparently, that driver flunked his driver exam. But anyway, Volunteer or not, there's no excuse for blowing a RED LIGHT. Suspend the driver and officer.
 

Probley drunk.
 

Must have been a working fire....
 

To the guy who made the comment " Who would have thought that St. Louis has volunteer firefighters driving their hose wagons." YOU IDIOT! THIS WAS OBVIOUSLY NOT A VOLUNTEER, SO YOU ARE SLAMMING YOUR OWN !
Being volunteer does not make you a better or worse driver. Being responsible is what determines that. GROW UP, and realize over 80% of our nation's firefighters are VOLUNTEER! ....and yes, they do it every day, and the fires are just as big and just as hot..
 

Obviously none of you have even taken a course in emergency vehicle operations. The first thing you do when a collision is inevitable is to hit the gas and keep moving forward. Suppose that engine had slammed on the brakes? The FFs in the back would have taken the brunt of the impact. Im not saying the driver should be excused for blowing through the red light, however he did the right thing in proceeding forward. Training prevented those guys from getting seriously hurt.
 

Voly/professional - it doesn't matter what type of firefighter you are when you get behind the wheel of a rig you better handle it like a loaded weapon. I work for LAFD and this happens out here - it happens in NY, San Fran. Voly companies outside San Diego, everywhere.
This is due to lack of driver training. Its just a fire, its either gonna get bigger or go out.
Now thats 2 less rigs at the fire.
 

First of all they are spelled BRAKES, and they could have FAILED. Everybody here assumes the brother driving the rig was being irresponsible and blowing a red light. I am willing to bet that NO driver would so blatantly blow a BLIND intersection and jeopardize the lives of all on board the rig. Innocent until proven guilty anyone?
To the moron arguing over the semantics of the term Hose Wagon it's obvious you have never been to a department that still runs 2 piece engine co.s and the terms Hose Wagon and Pumper sre still used.
 

for the person who posted October 22, 2008 12:28 AM thanks for posting facts and information. for the ones who wish and hope for fast recovery, well done, for everyone who talked about full time vs. vol. that guy who first posted the comment got what he wanted and you ALL played in to it. SHAME ON YOU ALL. get over it, both sides have great guys and a few jerk offs, the only question is witch type of guy are you.

LEARN FROM THIS VIDEO, DONT LET IT HAPPEN TO YOU!
 

Totally preventable. If you have ever taken a Vechicle Operations Course. It's BEAT into your head, stop at all RED lights.

I don't believe St. Louis is a Combination Department. I think they are all career here. Can't blame a volunteer on this.

Volunteer's and Professional Firefighters have the SAME training. Whoever thinks volunteer's aren't capable of doing the same thing professional firefighters are capable of need a reality check.
 

We are all volunteers. No one is forcing us to be here. Some of us have decided to make a career out of firefighting and in return get paid. However, we are all volunteers. Yes, the driver made a mistake. Who am I to throw the first stone? There is not a person in the fire service, career or volunteer, that has not made a mistake. Mistakes will continue to happen. We must take this and learn from it. Not bash each other with it. There are to many firefighters who think they are God's gift to firefighting. They do no wrong, everyone else does nothing right. Get over yourself. We are all here because we want to be. We are all here to do the same job. We are here for the public. To many of us have forgot that. Thank God our brother firefighters were not killed. Lets learn from this. Stop pointing fingers. Be safe brothers.
 

Unfortunately, Brakes or No Brakes, drivers do "Blatantly" scream through Red Lights. It is an unfortunate fact of life called "Sirencide". That is the adrenaline and heart pumping, the field of vision narrowing, the sense of hearing diminishing. We have to train to control that and as such, be in control no matter what. Brake failure has responses built in, ie: Downshift, service braking, anything else you can safely do to help slow down. Blind Corner and Red Light usually means an accident is going to ocurr if you don't first start timing your entrance into that type of intersection for the Green, which as all of us who have been driving for a period of longer than a few years and more than 500 calls have seen it happen. With the advent of the Cell Phone, more highly insulated against sound. Result is we must slow down!
 

The article only states that it was a RESERVE truck. It was a paid company on it. St. Louis has been paid for over 100 years!
 

You people are all very sad, the whole point of this video is not to lay blame on weather it was a paid or vollie driver.The point is to slow down,yeild right of way,stop at intersections,and be alert.If you all are fighting over the type od FF'er that was driving or that one type of FF'er is better than the other,your not real FF'ers. We're all suposed to be brothers. And 8 brothers were all injured due to this accident how about showing some concern for their life status?
You people make me sick.
 

I would like to wait to find out what the investigation reviels.When the guys and I watched this at my house we could not tell if the driver was blatenly proceeding through the intersection or if it was some sort of brake failure, judging by the way the truck shimmied. Luckily no one was seriously hurt we can all use this as training.
 

Love all the speculation about the driver and captain. Were you in the cabs? What color are the lights that the pumpers can see? How fast are the trucks going and were the brakes working correctly? Are the trucks taking their normal response routes? Did they in fact actually slow down before the intersection? Could they hear each other? Are they distracted by the smoke from the house fire a block away?

How people can look at one video angle and surmise the entire picture amazes me. Sure...immediately call the driver and officer idiots, blame poor training and condemn the whole department for one incident without getting all the facts.
I think I'll wait till the investigation is done and ALL the pieces are in play instead of idle speculation that does nothing but bring out the worst in people.
 

One should never draw conclusions on the video alone. There may be contributing factors not seen. We should be concerned 1st with the health and welfare of our brother and sisters. 2nd find the cause of the incident and finally take corrective measures that will prevent a like incident from happening again.
 

I hope all Firefighters involved recover quickly. For all those that want to debate POC,Volunter,vs Paid shame on you. I was a POC for 26 years and then became a full time Chief of our department. Policies and training prevent alot of accidents.
 

All the guys that saw this in my Dept. agreed the driver was completely in the wrong, he ran the red, he risked all the bunkers lives that were riding in the back, he should be fired. My chief says it al the time you respond to a call and crash you've just created another call
 

OK this is what happend; The paid truck was try'n to beat a private ambulance to an EMS call to justify there jobs, then the volly truck hit them and was like" we aint stopping, you guys ok caus' we're going to a fire!" and drove away...oh yeah and god is a Woman!
 

If everyone looks REALLY close and can get over yourselves, you can see two pieces of apparatus make out. You guys are acting like recess in bunker pants.

I hope everone makes it back to work, whatever their profession happens to be.

Cookie Monster: Former Seminole Trail Volunteer and Loudoun County Career Firefighter
 

I can't believe we had to go this route. Paid or volunteer when you take the wheel of a fire engine or a fire truck or whatever you want to call the vehicle we use to put out fires, you put yourself in a position of be PROFESSIONAL FIREFIGHTER. This is your job. Do your job. If you make a mistake, take it like a PROFESSIONAL FIREFIGHTER and learn from it. Yes, they were all very lucky. I am sure that department has taken care of the problem and are taking steps to not let this happen again.

I agree with the one above. We just don't know all the variables. This is what we call...TRAINING. Use this as a training aide for all to see and understand what CAN happen.

Be safe.
 

This incident sucks for all involved. However, how do you know the rig approaching in view had a red light. What happens to redlights on the other side of a premptive? Maybe the other driver was wrong. Maybe a premptive device malfunctioned. You all made assumptions without all the facts. Even the article said it "appeared" the rig approaching may have had a red light but the light was not visible in the video. And yes I am a "professional" volunteer firefighter. This is not a paid or volunteer debate. All of you need posting comments ned to put that mindset in check, that gets firefighters killed.
 

Dave..Please put an end to this. Its exceeded its useful life
 

Oh my what a mess but you know the people on this blog is just as crazy as the accident was. Yeah the driver didnt stop for the red light,s ure he was going way too fast when he should have been looking to make sure the intersection was clear. You know things happen and who are you guys to judge him. My husband in a vol. fireman and he takes his job serious he loves it and is trained just as well as the paid ones. THe other year they had an accident with one of their trucks the driver rounding a curve too fast lost control and flipped the truck onto its side the driver a paid firefighter the assisant cheif at that but yet no one blamed him for being reckless things happen> Instead of pointing fingers why dont you say a pray that 8 lives were spared.
 

Please excuse my spelling on my previous post. Any comments on my post can be directed to me at captain58@rvfd58.com. Knock off the finger pointing until the investigation is done. You need to highlight the good points, like they were not seriously hurt because they were WEARING SEATBELTS!
Tony Williams
Lancaster County, PA
 

You all sound like dopes. I drove for the FDNY 24 yrs and I wouldn't monday morning QB this as much as I wouldnt Monday Morning QB a fire I wasn't at!! I'm thinking maybe one of these companies we're out at the time of the call and were not used to seeing each other at this particular intersection!! Firefighters are aggresive by nature and the day they arent is going to be a bad day! Accidents happen, it sucks, but they happen!! To all of you Perfect firefighters out there that are ready to throw these BROTHERS under the bus, try and remember how many close calls you have been a part of that could have been just as bad as this or worse!!
 

What is that pedestrian doing? It looks like he is pointing something at the intersection. After the crash he walks away.
 

Just an idea...I'm not sure if this area is equipped with Opticoms and can't tell because of the grainy video and the film speed seems to match the frequency of the emergency lights(It would almost seem that the light bar isn't lit up which I strongly doubt), but let's say they do. Not to play Monday morning quarterback with this incident because this is just a general question that I do not know the answer to, but does anyone know if 2 vehicles coming from 2 directions can trigger green lights simultaneously?

Cookie Monster
 

Wow, Hope all involved have a speedy recovery. After they are better.....I hope they kick the crap out of both those drivers. BOTH are at fault for not making sure the intersection is clear before they proceeded through it. You do no good if you never make it to the fire scene.
 

I took the time to read all of the comments and there seem to be three things I've noticed:

1- Apparently one's ability to spell has nothing to do with whether they are career, volunteer, or some other classification.

2- The video is valuable because it illustrates what you don't want to happen. That's all that matters.

3- The most intelligent comment seems to be from whoever suggested that the blog be closed. The petty arguing has been around since long before I joined a combination department 35 years ago, and takes away from the point of the site.
 

Hello all,

First let me thank you for taking the time to write. No, we will not be closing down the blog or the comments section, but I do appreciate why some people have said this.

Personally I could do without the attacks, rudeness and volunteer vs. career issues. The policy of my company, like many news organization is not to censor the comments. We reject them only for a narrow list of reasons.

That said, I thought there were some very useful points brought up in many of these comments. I also think it is important to remember that the video is only part of the story. Anyone who has done investigations or covered them will tell you it is never any one thing that is the cause. There are always a series of factors.

Now, I believe I was the first from a news organization and/or fire service site to discover that the red light camera video had been leaked to YouTube and LiveLeak.

I believed when I found it very early Sunday morning and I still believe now, even without all of the other information, it is a very important 12 seconds of video.

Besides these comments, I have been hearing by email and phone from firefighters and officers around the country who have made sure their shift sat down and watched the video.

I don't see how that can be a bad thing.

Thanks again to all for taking the time to write and view what we have at STATter 911.

Dave
 

For the A-hole talking about voluteers they do it because they care you do it because your paid! there was no excuse for not stopping at a red light
 

This is great...someone screws up, runs a red light, gets T-Boned, flips a fire truck, and we bring it back to Volunteer VS Career!?? I'm not even from anywhere close to where this happened but we have the same issues...some idiot does something stupid and preventable and the attention is drawn to VOL. VS Career!!! This could have happened to anyone, anywhere. Even most of the most experience vol and career drivers have blew that one light or stop sign that enabled them to beat the first in company to a working fire!! Just ask, those guys love telling the war stories!! Bottem line is...thank god all those guys were not killed (paid or not), WE DO THIS TOGETHER IN SERVICE, FOR THE SAME REASON!! Its no wonder why the fire service is on a slow pace for advancment...because the Chiefs of our departments have to spend time cleaning up the BullSh!t most of you people have been whinning and crying about on here. Remember...."Everyone Goes Home"...think about it...some of you could learn a few values from it.
 

What a horrible accident. Never had to happen. I agree, we engineers or whatever you want to call the FF driving the "engine, quint, squirt, truck...etc" do sometimes get tunnel vision and our adrenaline starts to pump. I've taken what i've seen today and am going to learn from it! I work for a combination department. The last time I checked fires and ems calls don't distinguish between volly and paid FF's and don't treat us any different. All the fires I've been to in our "volunteer" district have been just as hot as the one's i go to in our "all career" district. What has our world come to where grown adults bicker like my 3 yr old and 2 yr old? Volly or paid, please be safe and WEAR YOUR SEATBELTS!

"Braithre Thar Gach Ni"
 

Sounds like we all FIREd up! Love your brother, even if he is a concieted CFF! As an EMT and frequent ambulace driver (in addition to VFF) I realize that anyone in EMS or firefighting should observe the "due regard" aspect of emergency driving. Regard others as better than yourself, and you will go a long way on all six tires!
 

A lot of you people don"t make much sence, Why are you bashing volunteer/ Payed ff,
It was an accident, I could happen to any deparment, Grow up and learn from it,
 

Accidents happen... We learn from the mistakes that are unfortunate. I am thankful that all involved are in good hands, and will recover from the horrible crash. I must say that I have a heavy heart for the Driver that is responsible for the event. I know he must feel extreme guilt and personal anguish in respect of the accident. In no way would anybody want to harm, or kill another thru a horrible unintended action. I became dizzy reading all the jabber about Volunteers vs. Paid Responders... I really hope that the focus of this event would be for our fellow FireFighters to recover, return to the front-lines, and for a new policy be enforced/enacted in not just this Department, but for all across the Nation. I can say that I am a Professional Firefighter in a large Metro area that is very diverse with population and growth. Being so, accidents on calls happen. Usually the accidents are confined to On-scene of the Call. I can't tell you how many times I might have made a wrong move or judgement on a call; but thankfully, I was looked after by my Brothers & Sisters on the ground, and looked upon by the ones up in the sky. Let's not be so harsh, but be encourraging for change and progress. Safety is first, let's all remember! God Bless & let the road never meet your ass! Georgia FireFighter
 

In this day and time, nothing can be taken for granted. Always run on the caution side.Especially at intersections. What a tragedy. God be close to the families and friends. sad...oncall
 

It has been my experience that volunteer firefighters have less fatalities, and tend to be more cautious than paid firefighters. Who seem to think that because they do it every day that they know everything. Which in fact puts them more at risk than a volunteer firefighter who is more apt to take a more cautious approach.

That being said. We are all trained extremely well. There could have been any number of things going on in that situation. Maintenance could be an issue, or just plain in the heat of the moment. I don't think anyone can afford to lose a firefighter over this incident, especially since we are in such high demand and few and far between. Stop worrying about blame here, everyone is at fault for not instilling proper training if that was an issue and everyone is at fault for not getting pressure to fix the rig if it needed maintenance.

Also, my volunteer fire department is better equipped than some paid departments around here. So if you want to stir something up, you can do it with that.
 

Having 32 plus years in Fire and EMS, and being both volunteer and paid , I provide driver training for a large metropolitan EMS service and assist with the same training for a combination fire service. The lapse in judgement displayed by the personnel in this video is commonplace in nearly all services in this country. Most of us have been very lucky, but when I obnserve any of my personel driving in this manner, I remind them that the next car that they hit could be their family member, and this has had a major impact on the way our vehicles are being operated. Hopefully all the members of the dept. have learned a very valuable lesson, without the loss or serious injury to one of their own
Bill Heizer FF/ EMT-P
 

Are you all visually blind? Both men are pointing to the oncomming truck that anouther is coming. To the idiot that asked why they didnt help, did you expect them to make it to the truck while it was still sliding?
 

VOLLY'S SUCK BECAUSE THEY ARE (MOSTLY) PEOPLE WHO CANNOT MAKE THE CUT FOR A PAID POSITION. SO THEY VOLUNTEER TO GET THEIR SQUIRREL NUTS OFF BY DRIVING THE BIG RED TRUCK WITH THE WOO WOO'S. NOT ALL VOLLIES ARE LIKE THIS. JUST MOST OF THEM.
 

I watched this video many times and read most of the comments. I work for the 4th largest fire dept in California. I was also a volunteer and am now paid. First I'm glad that nobody was seriously injured and we all can learn from this. The volunteer issue is not an issue. We all have to train and pass an exam to drive these rigs. The maintenance issue could be something, but why was it on the road? Morning checkout? I'm not buying that. If it was on the road, then it was o.k. Do you guys need new rigs...YES! 20 yrs. old They should be re;lief rigs. We all want to FIGHT FIRE, but we have to get there first to do just that. What they pay us for! The rig blew the light and that's plain and simple! Here we have it on tape. No he said, she said! Just be safe guys and go home to our families. That's the most important!
SFFD 103
 

Can't any one just learn from this and keep each other safe!! With everyone placing blame, and this Vol. vs Paid crap it seems people are missing the point. PREVENT this from ever happing again, regardless of who, what or where. Be safe all.
 

"There is no such thing as a green light."
Tony Faminella, teaching EVOC at Floyd Bennett Field in Brooklyn for NYC-EMS August 1984

This could happen to any one of us, no matter what uniform, vehicle, or form of compensation.
 

Well ain't this typical,..No matter what the damn issue is it never fails that we turn it into a career vs vollie war. No more than a pissin contest on the playground. Never mind the fact that eight brothers and or sisters could have lost their lives, or maybe 8-12 little ones could have lost their mom or dad. Let's just make sure that we run one or another in the ground. I've been doin this for 13 years and have worked w/ some volunteer dept's during such, and I gotta tell ya, there are morons on both sides, as well as great FF's. I leave you all with one question, if you can't answer it, or don't understand it...PLEASE go to your Chief and turn your stuff in in the morning.

If we don't stand together,..Who is gonna stand for us?

Career Firefighter...Volunteer Firefighter, hmmm what's the common denominator here????

G. Walker
UCFD
FF/EMT I
 

I think that is total BS that "nobody is to blame" and lets all hold hands and sing cumbaya for this incompetent driver because he fells so bad. The fact is, that if he feels bad, good. he should. It's people with this "cowboy" mentality that need to be FIRED these people put our lives in danger and those whom we are to protect. I'm sure he feels real important driving fast with lights and sirens blowing red lights "out of my way or hell to pay". He obviously does not have the right mentality of, calm and cool. I hope he does feel bad because he made me, and all of you look bad here.
 

CAN’T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG

We are all brother of some sort, some are red headed step children, (I am sure I will receive hate thread from the red headed step children)

I am from a mixed 37 Career and 6 Volley station County.

Just recently, we had a sit down at the vol station, one gentle man was very upset from how some career Firefighter was bashing our vol stations; the funny thing was this career guy started out as a Volley at the station we were sitting at. Furthermore, how ironic it changes from when the Vol Chief writes the letter of recondition to get the guy hire on Career to when he says he hate the volleys. We call it going to the Dark Side of the Fire Force…

I have heard every single slang adjective from “foundation saver” to D.A.V (Dumb “Butt” Volunteer). I best describe this as the same dysfunctional brother hood of the military, The Army hates The Reserve, The Reserve hates the National Guard and the Guard hates the Boy Scouts. Well, the Guard has to hate someone… But when one gets shot at it no longer becomes an issue, we are a family being shot at by Taliban, thou we may be dysfunctional we are still family. The same is true of the fire service, you may be on vacation and stop at a MVA in North Carolina, a NYFD, CFD and a HCFR may all be driving with there family’s and see the crash, dose anyone ask if any Firefighter on scene is a volley??? NO!!! WE GET THE JOB DONE!!! Ladies and Gentle men this is the path we have chosen. If the first question out of your mouth is “are you a Volley or Career” then you are in the wrong profession.

My last rant is to both volleys and career; if you hate each other the only person hurt in the end is the public, the same people who we are there to help and if you have so much hate find a different job. But I forgot you’ll probable hate the fry cook while you flipping burgers. Darn part time fry cook, look at those fries, their not even the right texture or color and their cold…darn part time fry cook.
 

In response to the previous comments that "this could happen to any of us". If this could happen to you, then you have no business being a firefighter. Career or volunteer. This is a cut and dry issue of somebody driving recklessly without due regard, and ignoring a traffic controll device at a blind intersection. I can tell you this. This could not happen to any of us because I am a firefighter also and I can guarantee that this could and would not happen to me becuase I don't drive like a retard
 

Thankfully there has been this big push over the past few years to wear seat belts. This could have been a lot uglier...cooler heads always prevail.
 

How would you like to have the ignorant jacka^& that said "volly's suck" leading your department, it is classic "foot in mouth disease" without knowing the facts. Way to go dummy. I'm glad to hear that everyone will make a full recovery and hopefully lessons can be learned from this incident regardless of how they make their living.
 

I didn't read all of these comments but it seems many of them say the engine didn't even slow down. If you watch closely, he was slowing down. Now, obviously he wasn't going to come to a complete stop before the intersection he was crossing. But it looks to me like he wasn't "blowing" the red light as much as he was rolling through it. The point being that I don't think this was as reckless as many of you make it seem. I have yet to meet the "perfect" fireman who has never made a mistake. If you think this could or would not happen to you, you either have never driven a fire apparatus, work in po dunk USA without traffic signals, or are on the slowest least motivated fire company in your town. Could this accident have been prevented? Yes, most can. But to vilify the driver without knowing ANYTHING about this other than the video is ridiculous. I have been driving a truck many years now without an accident but there have definitely been close calls. It's good to know that if I ever do have an accident, and it happens to be caught on tape, there will be a bunch of wannabe fireman crying to each other on a message board about whether or not they are paid or volunteer. So to close, wear your seat belt and shut the f%@! up.
 

It's all Mark Bradys fault. He is just covering up for the man. J/K
Glad everyone is ok. This is a great learning video.
 

I would be curious to know whether the brakes and other mechanicals were inspected after the accident and what that inspection revealed. If this unit did indeed have brake work performed prior to the accident what was the condition and adjustment of the brakes at the time of the accident? It is possible that the brakes were good and someone is trying to lay blame on a mechanical issue that doesn't exist. I'm not saying that is the case here but we all know that it's happened before.
As to the age of the units and the amount of runs they see, that excuse is hogwash. A properly maintained apparatus of any year and use will function as designed. Having been a Master Technician for over 27 years I can say that. If the apparatus is not properly maintained then someone should be looking hard at the maintenance SOP or department to see why. In this line of work there is absolutely no excuse for not maintaining a fire apparatus properly. Don't even start with the budget or funding excuse either. Grab your AHJ by the ears, show them this video, and remind them of the liability they incur by failing to budget for or fund proper maintenance.
As to the comments about inadequate or poor training, this may not necessarily be the case either. We all know someone(s) who get 'tunnel vision' or 'red light fever' when a call comes in. If this is the case for God's sake don't let them drive or stay on top of them if they do. Blowing a red light and saving 10 seconds on a response is not worth the risk. It could be you riding shotgun or riding down that street with your kids when he blows the next one.
As said before, Thank God they were all wearing seat belts. This shows that the message is getting through so keep sending it as well as the other safety messages. Sooner or later they will get through as well, whether it takes an incident such as this or not the message will eventually get through.
 

Thankfully everyone was ok; stop judging you werent there; maybe there was a reported entrapment; yes they should have stopped or at least slowed down ; learn from it but dont throw your brothers under the bus; Atlanta FF
 

"VOLLY'S SUCK BECAUSE THEY ARE (MOSTLY) PEOPLE WHO CANNOT MAKE THE CUT FOR A PAID POSITION. SO THEY VOLUNTEER TO GET THEIR SQUIRREL NUTS OFF BY DRIVING THE BIG RED TRUCK WITH THE WOO WOO'S. NOT ALL VOLLIES ARE LIKE THIS. JUST MOST OF THEM."

Maybe, most Vollies can't take the pay cut from the "Real Pay the Bills" job to the "Wannabe Woo Woo" job since fireman are (unfortunately) very underpaid in most cities/districts... I'm sure not all vollies are like this, some just want squirrel nuts. Most career I know work two jobs. So do I but I only get paid for one.

Back on subject: Stuff happens that can and will be beyond your control. Wear your seatbelt and don't make assumptions that the other guy is going to do the "right" thing.
 

Even if your drivers and officers are trained right and do the right thing, someday, sometime one (or two) of them is going to make a mistake. Errors happen. That's what seatbelts are for. So even though somebody screwed up, somebody was also doing the right thing on getting their crews to buckle up, and that's why this was an expensive mistake, not a fatal one.
 

After 21 years of firefighting (both career and volunteer) I'm done hearing the volunteer vs. career stuff. I hear career and volunteers preach brotherhood and yet they always have something to say about one or the other. I have seen an awful lot of worthless people on both sides of the coin. I have at least a handful of lawn ornaments (out standing firefighters) in my volunteer department, and more than our share of yard breathers in my career department. The fact of the matter is..... both career and volunteer departments have people that suck...... GET OVER IT. Do your job and let them worry about themselves.

To the people at the St. Louis Fire Department, please learn from this near disaster! Good luck in the future.
 

Not to take away from this very serious accident,but did anyone else notice the guy across the street calmly walking away from the accident as if nothing happened. Hope everyone recovers quickly and learns from this near tragedy.
 

No one who watches a 12 second video clip of any incident can expect to make an intelligent observation on something as complex as this. For all anyone outside the cabs of those to units know, there could have been been a mechanical failure or even a medical incident involving one of the drivers. The point is keep your comments about fault, blame and who should or should not be disciplined to yourself until ALL the facts are know.

Capt. Brian Graf, Pacific Fire Protection District, Pacific, MO
 

Wow – a large number of these comments are losing site of what is important.

What do we know about this MVA:
1) Everyone should be affected by the video - imagine being in either apparatus, or being right next to this MVA,
2) Two apparatus & crews involved in this MVA did not make it to the scene,
3) Additional resources were required for this new incident, a MVA,
4) This MVA possibly/probably negatively affected response to the initial call (directly, indirectly, & distraction),
5) Thankfully, seat belts were apparently worn,
6) The crews involved in the MVA are recovering (Get Well Soon!),
7) This MVA is going to be investigated,
8)The video has brought out way too many asinine comments, most of which have lost site of what is important.

What is important: Our customers (yes –ours, not mine or yours) want to see a big shiny red truck if they call for us. Our customers don’t care about the lettering on the door(s) of the apparatus. If the incident calls for additional resources, then the IC should call for the next resource (station, department, etc.). At the incident scene, the color, logo, and lettering of the turnout gear is not significant TO OUR CUSTOMERS, because we all are resources that are SERVING OUR CUSTOMERS.

It does seem to be interesting that the displayed & vocalized arrogance mostly occurs displayed between calls. In my IC classes, I do not recall anything about differentiating between Career & Volunteer resources – do you? IC training specifies that the IC should request the correct type of resources (for example, an EMS crew being asked to perform SWAT sniper duty). I would hate to be an IC that ignores a nearby or neighboring resource when requesting a ‘good old boy’ resource farther away, and then justify it to a jury, judge, and lawyer in a lawsuit. Imagine being an IC being questioned by a lawyer: You mean that you let my client get burned because you were so arrogant that you ignored closest available resources because of your ego? Talk about legal issues and financial repercussions, both personal & professional!

I find the Volunteer versus Career commentary as ridiculous as the following rivalries: Hatfields & McCoys, OU & UT, North & South, Jr. & Stewart, Steelers & Cowboys, Lakers & Celtics, Blues & Rangers, Democrat & Republican, and many, many more. Have I pissed everyone off? I hope so, because I am trying to point out the difference between our communities (including FFs, & EMS, & Law Enforcement) and OUR customers. We participate in the solution, we are not merely spectators (arm chair quarterbacks). I don’t play football or drive a race car, but I do drive a big, heavy fire truck responding to calls while looking out for (or should I say dodging?) traffic (of all types). All of these communities exist to serve our customers. Everything else is merely our egos and arrogance talking.

Do any of us respond to a call just to do a bad job? If so, move on. In my case, I strive to do my best responding to all calls for assistance, either Career or Volunteer organization. Yes, I make mistakes, and I try to learn by them. Can you be as honest as I am trying to be?

Competition & comparison is understandable within our community(s), but NOT to the detriment of the priorities as stated by Incident Command, starting with our safety and followed by our customer’s safety.

BTW - in case you did not pick up on it, but I am not specifying which type of fire department I respond with because that is not the point. I am here for our customers, not my ego. Are you?

Now, I guess I need to go back to trying to teach pigs to sing. I probably will have more success with these song lessons, because it is probably impossible to get the arrogant, one-sided, bigoted, and opinionated members of our community(s) (yes - including me) to work together for the right reasons – everyone’s safety and to serve our customers for each & every request for response.
 

There are two fires going on. A group of dedicated men and women grab their gear, jump on the truck, go to the fire and put it out. Another group of dedicated men and women grab their gear, jump on the truck, go to the fire and put it out. Everyone got there in one piece, everyone went home in one piece. Mission accomplished.
 

First and foremost, I am glad there were no serious injuries. I think it's hilarious though that you can tell by reading these comments why the volunteers are still just volunteers. You need thick skin to be a firefighter. The number one cause of injuries in the fire department is hurt feelings. One guy leaves a joke about volunteers,and they all start crying. ha ha Lighten up.
 

You are right that nobody can get all the facts from a 12 second video clip. but If you had a clip of a man pulling a gun and shooting a store clerk that was only 12 seconds long you could still say that the gunman is responsible for the clerks death. Of course you could. This clip shows an apparatus clearly ignoring a red light at a blind intersection and driving without due regard. Yes it is a possiblility that there was a mechannical malfunction (i hope so) but chances are, there wasn't. I have made stupid mistakes before, like trying to look at the information on my pager while driving a quint code 3 to a scene, or trying to change radio channels or even changing the tone of my siren. While doing this it is very possible that I could have not seen a pedestrian and creamed them. But. If that happened to me I would admit fault and probably resign. I am going to learn from this experience by not looking at my pager, not changing radio channels, and having my officer adjust my siren tone from now on when I am operating an apparatus. I will give my full attention to the road so this does not happen to us again on my watch. (notice I said us and not me. this happened to two departments, not just one driver.) If I have offended anybody, too bad. I am open to comments and please respond.
 

We wish all the Hero's involved in this accident a speedy recovery.... Accident's happen to both Paid and Volunteer Fire Fire Fighters... In my 33 years I have never seen Fire make a differnece. It will Kill A Volunteer Fire Fighter just as fast as a Paid Fire Fighter... As the the negative comment concerning Volunteers made by the anonymous, apparant subject matter expert on the male anatomy. You should continue to conceal your identity.
 

No one who watches a 12 second video clip of any incident can expect to make an intelligent observation on something as complex as this.

Sure you can, watch this. A fire truck approaches a red light at a blind intersection. The firetruck barely even slows down at the blind intersection. The firetruck collides with another firetruck as a result. That is an intellegent observations after watching a 12 second clip. Nobody said they know exactly all the details that will come after the investigation. They are just doing what I am doing here, which is make an intelligent observation. Thats what we do every day, make intelligent observations based on limeted information, from patients, to trying to figure out what fueling a fire that wont go out. Now, if you cannot make an intelligent observation, then maybe you need to re-think your career choice.
 

What if the lights you cannot see are both green?
 

In ref to the questions of why two trucks were going the way they were to the same fire: If you watch the news stories on this and these photos of the aftermath (http://www.emstube.com/video/650/St-Louis-Fire-Trucks-Aftermath-Photos) you'll the fire was just off to the right of the camera, but like a block or two. Possibly, since these trucks were coming from different stations, the assignment may have been bring in the truck coming towards the camera may have been to approach from the other side of the structure. Hence is why he pasted the street so he could go around the block. Just a thought.
 

AGAIN!!!!!: To the ones commenting on why the two companies were going in different ways: E-10 was traveling north on Taylor to the fire scene (which was one block north of where this accident happened) E-28 was traveling east on MLK, toward Newstead, to make a hydrant at Aldine and Newstead. The fire was between Taylor and Newstead on Aldine, this is why one was going north and the other continuing east another block. The "swerve" you notice E-28 do just before getting hit was the reaction of the driver as he noticed E-10 on his right side, but it was too late. Also, you are looking west on MLK from this camera view, there is a left turn arrow on MLK to turn from MLK to Taylor from both directions, so you can't judge from this angle if E-28 had a green light or not coming east just by seeing that it was red viewing west. It is very possible that E-28 had a green light and E-10 had a red, this video does not show substantial proof in either companies favor. Hopefully the investigation will find out what happened. AGAIN...YOU CANNOT TELL FROM THIS VIDEO WHAT KIND OF LIGHT (RED, GREEN, ARROW...ETC...) E-28 (COMING TOWARD YOU) HAD, NOR CAN YOU TELL THE LIGHT THAT E-10 HAD EITHER. AS STATED BEFORE THIS INTERSECTION HAS LEFT TURN SIGNALS IN BOTH DIRECTIONS (EAST AND WEST ON MLK) YOU CANNOT SEE THE LIGHT THAT THE 28'S OR THE 10'S HAD. THERE IS NO WAY TO KNOW FOR SURE FROM THIS VIDEO...PERIOD!
 

Accidents happen paid or volunteer does not really matter. Everyone goes out to every call with the same intention, to help your fellow human being. I am glad no one was hurt because thats most important, but for those you who are quick to blame you should never open your mouths without knowing the full story, so many things could have gone wrong we simply do not know until they investigate. I have been a paid F/F for 15 years in NJ and I have lost 2 friends because of human error and another because of circumstances simply out of our control. GOD BLESS ALL EMERGENCY WORKERS PAID & VOLUNTEER.
 

I have been a volunteer for 36 years and a paid fire fighter for 3.5 years. I was often asked why do you volunteer? My answer is simple, most small communities can not pay members salaries for fire protection. I volunteer to help my community and if my house catches on fire, I can get a fire truck. Currently there is a paid fire fighter on my volunteer dept. My question to the volly haters, if you care for your community and truly want to help people, then why do you not volunteer on your two days off! If you live in the city, then look for an adjoining village, township or rural area that could use your training to improve their skills and my save their lives.
Chief Derifield, Perry Twp. Vol. F.D., Ironton, Ohio.
 

I never heard anything else about the possibilities of 2 Opticoms or MIRTs triggering 2 greens in 2 directions but I did a little research on my own because I have nothing better to do. Not saying any of this makes anything right it's more FYI than anything. I found a blog on our bible, Firehouse.com, from an accident in Illinois in 2004 where 2 fire truck/ engine/ quint/ tower/ tele squirt/ boat/ hose wagons collided, and unfortunatly, a firefighter was killed.

Sorry to prevent another total frickin' freakout but I'm not sur if these were vollies or careers. It's only a matter of time, though, until somebody points it out, so.....STFU! I had to edit names and places a little so it would post.

Such and such Deputy Police Chief Frodo Baggins said investigators determined that only the Big Red truck was outfitted with an emitter.

The devices are designed to help emergency vehicles move quickly through intersections while avoiding collisions, a leading cause of death for firefighters.

Last year, 13 west suburbs, including Oz, outfitted their vehicles and traffic signals with the devices. San Quentin did not participate in the program.

Oz Mayor, the Wizard said his firefighters reported that they had a green light as they headed into the intersection northbound on Dirt Road.

The Wizard said the village's acting fire chief was following close behind the truck in a sport-utility vehicle equipped with an emitter.

San Quentin's Fire Chief Bill Romanowski and Acting Oz Fire Chief Eli Manning issued a statement Wednesday saying they would not comment on the crash until the investigation is complete.

San Quentin's Mayor Al Bundy said, "We need to learn from what happened, but we need to wait for the investigation results."
_________________________________
Not having all the facts on the incident or the final report, I can not speculate, but it seems as if 2 devices did, quite possibly, trigger green lights in different directions, still not saying it's right, but still a thought.

Cookie Monster
Frmr Vollie and Carrer guy, yada yada yada
X68Charger@aol.com
 

First off, thank God no one was seriously injured. Now, I will for the life of me never understand the banter between paid and volunteer. There are some very talented volunteer fire and EMS folks out there as well as there are paid. Conversely, there are some real idiots out there, paid and volunteer. Personally, I'm paid EMS, but volunteer as well for a combination Fire/Rescue/EMS squad. I'm a early retiree from the business world and decided to take it easy after 40 so I took on paid position in EMS. Go figure, I thought it would be less stressful. I get allot more gratification from the volunteering side of fire & EMS than I do the paid side. Noff said.

There is a valuable lesson here to be learned by everyone in the fire & EMS service. We need to be extremely careful when responding to our calls. We do no one any good by rushing off on adrenalin and risking a tragedy while en-route to an emergency scene. This intersection collision is not just an issue of city departments, it is also something rural departments need to be aware of as well. When we call in mutual aid, we are going to have trucks responding from different directions converging on a single location. That fact alone needs to be remembered when we approach intersections. While you may know where your department units are, you do not know where your neighboring communities trucks will be popping out of. Rushing through intersections without stopping spells out only one thing: Disaster!

I did look at the pictures posted on EMSTUBE.com, and while they were very interesting, they did not show where the fire scene was, I did see the fire scene however during a news broadcast. The fire was a block to the right of the camera view, so the post above may have been right that the two trucks needed to cross paths to reach their assignments. The truck that tipped over may have been required to circle the block in order to reach his position.

So please let's all learn to get along, but mostly, be safe, come home to your families.

Lt. Don B.
 

First, glad to hear all eight were wearing seatbelts. More than likely, this saved lives and/or very serious injuries. Hope all of you involved are doing OK.

I've seen the YouTube video several times. First time view I saw two trucks colliding and a red light facing the camera, which is opposite the view Co. 28 had. As I reviewed it several more times, I started looking at the bigger picture. It shows shadows being cast in the direction of 28's view (possible sun glare facing 28). A man is pointing in the direction of Co. 10's approach. Co. 28 moves toward the center of the road as it enters the intersection.

What I don't know is: condition of brakes, what drivers and officers were looking at specifically as they entered the intersection (appears from other video that smoke from the fire would have been visible on their approach), conversations in the cabs.

I looked for other video and found one taken by a news helicopter after the crash. At one point it shows the light facing 28's approach. I couldn't see red, yellow or green. Looks like the light may not have been working???

Regardless, both Co.'s should have slowed (if they saw green), or stopped (if they saw red or no indication at all) before entering the blind intersection.

Please, reserve judgement till all the facts are in.

Be safe. Arrive alive and make a difference.
 

Link to aerial video

http://www.kmov.com/video/topvideo-index.html?nvid=291552

Be patient. View of light comes late in the video.

Remember:
Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.
 

Not everyone is perfect! Only one man walked on earth and never made a mistake.JESUS CHRIST! God bless all who give their time and experience to help others.

Jesus said...

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

In other words, none of us are perfect, we will make mistakes.
We should learn from them. 19 years at the Prattville Fire Dept. in Ala.
Thank God each day and be glad we are able to serve. God Bless all of you, and be safe.
 

We have the same problem with our department, people not slowing down for redlights and not looking.
Maybe this will teach to look before they come hauling-ass through a redlight!!!
 

to the person who said they could make judgement after watching the video, you're right, you can draw an intelligent conclusion of the VIDEO after watching the VIDEO. You cannot, however, draw an intelligent conclusion on the entire event. And I don't need to re-think my career choice, I have made conclusions without all the facts before and most of the time I get some if not all of it wrong. I also don't make comments without signing my name. Capt. Brian Graf
 

VOLLY / Whackers (as we in the (burgh call them).
Why do you get so hell bent on paid departments? I understand your training is top notch b/c thats all WHACKERS do is train and Surround and Drown house fires!
Leave going into the buildings to professionals! I don't voulnteer to deliver your pizzas!
 

Alright, tell that to some of the local governments in the northeastern united states who depend solely on all-volunteer fire companies and see what they think.
 

Can You Say TUNNEL Vision!!!
 

We live and work in that world, as a professional, we shouldn't be that world.
 

It is not just paid personnel but volunteers as well who let the adrenalin rush distort your judgement. My son was hit by a car when he was 6 and drug 28 feet under the car. The driver? A volunteer responding to a fire call who ran a stop sign just when my son was crossing the street.
 

Did anybody stop to think that this spare piece might have had a
mechanical problem which caused the brakes to fail. Wait till all the facts are in before drawing conclusions.
 

LETS FACE IT ACCIDENT HAPPEN, KNOWING THAT IS A FACT WE SHOULD BE PUTTING OUR EFFORT INTO PREVENTION AND UPDATING TECHNOLOGY SO ACCIDENT CAN BE PREVENTED. ONE OF THE BEST WAYS TO PREVENT ACCIDENT LIKE THIS IS TO HAVE EMERGENCY COMMUNICATION PROFESSIONALS AT YOUR COMMUNICATION CENTERS WHO MONITOR RESPONSE PATTERNS ALONG WITH AVAILABILITY. IF YOU LISTEN TO FDNY FIRE RADIO WHO WILL HEARD FIREALARM DISPATCHERS WARNING RESPONDING UNITS TO USE CAUTION DUE TO CROSS RESPONSES WHICH THIS WAS. ANY TIME YOU HAVE TWO TRUCKS COMPANIES INVOLVED IN AN ACCIDENT TWO DIFFERENT INCIDENTS OR ONE OF THOSE COMPANIES WAS GOING THE WRONG WAY. THEY DO MAKE COLLISION ALERTS WHICH WILL HELP PREVENT ACCIDENT PD/ EMS/ FIRE CROSS ALL THE TIME. PREVENTION WORKS BEST.
 

This video was probably posted as a reminder to all fire and rescue, (both career and volunteer) that this can and does happen.

All the brothers and sisters in the fire service (both volunteer and career) are the kind of people that are willing to put their life on the line for each other and for total strangers. Many firefighters serve in both capacities.

Everyone goes home......everyone.