STATter 911

Dave, not trying to be too critical here... but this is probably something that you should have done prior to posting the original story. It's always nice to get all the details prior to throwing up a headline-- especially when you know that said headline will likely cause all the volunteer-bashing career staff to crawl out the woodwork like insects. With your volunteer background and knowledge of how anti-volunteer most career staff are, I would have expected a little more sensitivity to the issues surrounding this call.

From the responses on the other blog associated with this incident it looks like the lunacy has already started. It's a shame that such dedicated volunteers and their leadership will be bashed around in blogs by "anonymous" posters whose goals are less to reveal the truth and more to bash volunteers and push them out of the fire system.

Perhaps these people might care to explain how they feel Loudoun County is served by attacking the Delis? They have volunteered thousands of hours in the fire and rescue system-- running calls, setting up and leading training activities, and coordinating other public service related activities around the firehouse. They have provided first rate education to many other volunteers who now run as EMTs in companies across the county-- for the love of doing so, with no compensation.

Loudoun County is a safer, better place as a direct result of the Delis and other dedicated volunteers like them. Don't give the pro-union volunteer haters fuel by publishing stories without having all the facts... this can only lead to good people getting burned.
 

Feel free to be critical. Never a problem.

When and if there are significant new or different facts to this story, I will be glad to publish them and put them on TV.

The only thing I have learned since the story aired, according to one person who posted, is that there may have been an alerting problem. Right now, that is not a confirmed fact. If and when it is, I will put it out there.

The story is pretty simple. 911 was called. It took the first due engine almost 13-minutes to get out of the house. The ambulance followed a minute later, driver-only. To my knowledge, no one is disputing those facts.

One thing we don't always have the luxury of in a daily TV news operation, is getting beyond the incident to a wider view of things. What does it all mean?

I've read each and every comment about what people on both sides of the issue think it means. From that, I am interested in learning if there is a pattern at this company or elsewhere in Loudoun County. If there isn't and volunteer participation is healthy, that's still a story.

Thanks for your input.

Statter
 

Dave, I do not believe that volunteer commitment is a problem at CO12, or at any other companies in Loudoun County.

If you want a good story about volunteer commitment out there it's not hard to find. CO14 is still all volunteer (no career staff at all!) as far as I know. And I'd point to the countless hours that any number of EMTs run. A number of EMT-E/I/P folks provide regional ALS coverage to the west end of the county and have done so for years. This is in addition to their duty commitments to their companies. This sounds like a good story to me; I'd encourage you to follow up on it.

I'm sure there are some-- perhaps folks in the county leadership, as another poster suggested-- that would disagree with me, both about the commitment of CO12 members, and of volunteers in general. I question the level of understanding, sincerity, and motives of those that do. Watch out for these folks, as their primary agenda is to turn a good, healthy volunteer system into a union-first career system that has little place for volunteers, except to sweep out squad bays and wash apparatus.

Also, if you feel the information you received is credible I'd encourage you to follow up on the question of whether or not CO12's tones dropped initially. If it didn't happen, a lot of questions surrounding this incident would be answered.

Until now, many of the apparent anti-volunteer crowd have been fear-mongering by making statements that a duty crew wasn't available-- making it sound like LVFR didn't have a crew, or just didn't care. I sincerely doubt that this was the case, and once again question the sincerity and motives behind such conjecture. I would suggest that they are either ignorant regarding the facts, or are intentionally misleading the public-- the latter being significantly worse than the former. Given the way that some career staff have treated CO12's leadership in the past, I wouldn't put anything past them-- especially when given an opportunity to bash LVFR's volunteers.
 

I would encourage the last poster to explain why the career staff at company 12 experienced having their high pressure lines on their SCBA disconnected regularly. Why the career office has been broken into and confidential personnel files rifled through. Why during morning checks, discharge handles are left cracked so once the pump is engaged the hosebeds get charged. Why hostile work environment charges have been leveled against company 12. Why when those charges were leveled a committee made up of mostly volunteers refused to persue any action against company 12 and despite evidence to the contrary decided to tar the name of a damned good captain that is loved by the majority of the volunteer and career staff throughout Loudoun County. Perhaps they can explain why Mike Deli was brought up on charges by his own IAFF Local for his misconduct and the way he treated HIS union brothers in Loudoun County. I will not deny that the Deli's have taught a lot of people and run a lot of calls, but their behavior and general conduct toward the career staff in Loudoun has been inexcusable and in the vast majority of cases unprovoked. The denial of issues in Lovettsville is simply something that a person with no comprehension of reality would promote. I feel terrible that these issues had to be brought to light in such a manner, but perhaps this is something that can push for progress and change, all of which are well past due and needed to protect the citizens of Northern Loudoun County. Furthermore the career staff had nothing to do with this issue other than respond on the medic unit from Leesburg when dispatched.
 

CO14 Purcellville is all Volunteer 24/7. Its the last station in the county to be staffed fully by vollies according to their recent flier I got in the mail asking for donations.

What I would like Dave to ask is why Co 14 were not used as second due in this call?

Why does Loudoun County Dispatch seem to ignore 2nd due areas and in this case dispatch their beloved Company 13 all the way from Leesburg for a second due response on this call.

If you look at the FOIA CAD document Dave has here, Medic 801 was first on the scene. I believe station 8 is Philomont which is South of Purcellville by 5 or 6 miles or more importantly 20 miles from Lovettsville. So 801 must have drove thru Purcellville right thru (Co14)first due and got to the call before 13 did.

Something is badly squeeking within dispatch Dave. I agree CO12 scratching is the main bad thing in all this, but something doesnt gell here with other parts of this mess.
 

good point above. If 801 makes it in first from 20 miles south of the call driving through Purcellville which is 14miles south of the call, why did Loudoun EEC use a company from the east as second due?

It almost looks to me like there is a bias against using an all volunteer company even though its closer in favor of using a further away career Company. This call has opened more questions than just a missed call.

Not only was the response from 12 poor for the service of the public, but you have to wonder about the use of company 13 (career) even though it's further away than 14

I agree with the above poster in that there is an obvious dispatch error here too
 

Before this starts to get out of control, there are a few things to think about. First did Co.14 have a medic on the board?? If not, that is why they did not get dispatched. Second if Co.13 had a volunteer medic up they would have responded instead of the career medic. So before you go any further get all the facts instead of just fishing for junk.
 

CONGTRADULATIONS to everyone who has posted a reply to this blog on Co. 12's delayed response. You have once again redirected the attention away from the REAL issue, to one that can not and will not be solved in this manor. I AM a volunteer in Loudoun County and right now I feel embarassed to say that. We all know that our system is, to say the least, disfunctional. We have companies in the west that HATE companies in the east. We have stations that have career staff that HATE the career staff. We have chief officers that won't attend council meetings because they HATE the other chiefs and on and on it goes. I have seen presidents and chiefs stand up at company meetings and say HORRIBLE things about other companies, the commission, Chief Pozzo and the career staff. I have even heard them say HORRIBLE things about their own MEMBERS. It once got so bad that myself and other members got up and walked out on a company meeting. THIS HAS TO STOP!!!!!! The real issue is and continues to be our ability to staff units and provide a service to the taxpayers of the county. If a company is having difficulties staffing units then they need to ask the county for HELP. I have worked with the career staff at my station and they are nothing like the others have described. They work hard, train hard and take care of more than most of you will ever admit to. Please stop turning this into a volunteer / career thing and get back to the real problem at hand, providing the level of service the community expects. Some others will say that I am anti-volunteer or pro-career and that's fine with me. Just for the record I am neither of these. What I am is ANTI-STUPID. If you think the volunteers don't spend time working hard and training, WE DO! If you think the career staff don't work hard and take care of our stations, THEY DO! Like I said before, I have taken the time to meet these guys and gals and I have to say, I am glad that they are here. Maybe the rest of you need to do the same thing. Take time to meet them, work with them, train with them and share a meal with them. You just might find that they are good hardworking, dedicated people that pick up where we leave off. If we are classified and a combination system, it's time WE ACTED like it.
Just my two cents.
 

of course CO 14 had a medic on board. That medic would be 801 who got there first. 801 covers the whole west end so is on the board on all west end houses.

So yep the west end medic was on the board and first up.

A simple map quest between the call and the two companies produced the following simple distance using most direct route

Company 13...17.71 miles.

Company 14....10.04 miles (on a straight 55 mph highway.

Thats almost half the distance. Aint no one fishing for anything except wondering the reasoning behind the dispatch decision. Like you in your post, I wonder why 14 didnt get dispatched also.

While I understand your comment about volunteer medics from 13 would have went if dispatched, I agree with that 110%, but I also know the EEC can see the numbers and have a note of hours of medics. Look to the CAD notes...99** which is a career number, was on Medic 13.

So much for BARB...I guess it only gets used when it suits.
 

I'd just like you all to note that Medic 801 was running as a regional ALS unit in a chase vehicle (not an ambulance) covering any ALS calls in that region of Loudoun County. Medic 801 did not respond from Philomont, he normally stays in or near Purcellville while running as regional ALS. On all cardiac arrest calls, Loudoun County always adds a second Medic unit, and the Ambulance from Co. 13 was that second medic unit, as it was the next available medic after 801. As for skipping Co. 14 in dispatch, there was not a medic in service, nor was a BLS unit in service. A BLS ambulance from Co. 17 (volunteer staffed) was dispatched when Co. 12 failed to get out in time, then a few minutes later a medic from Co. 17 (who was not originally in service) added on but the second medic from Co. 13 was already closer and arrived before them. Learn your dispatch protocols; here is what they looked for on the first dispatch as stated in the CAD notes for this call:
08:55:45 *1 AMB, 2 ALS, 1 ENGINE OR TRUCK - SEND CODE PAGE (CJW-03)

If Co. 14 had a medic in service they would have been dispatched along with the regional medic 801 and if Co.14 had a BLS unit in service they would have been dispatched instead of Co. 17’s BLS unit when Co. 12 failed to respond not instead of the Medic from Co. 13 who was the only other Medic unit available for calls at that time, as all other medics from Co. 13 where currently on calls at the time of dispatch.

Co. 14 claims to be the only 24/7 all volunteer station, well Co. 25 and 15 in Sterling also do not have any career staff during any hour 24/7, but how often do all of these agencies have fully staffed crews, it’s not 24/7 as they claim, and at that how often are the units staffed by these agencies medic units verses just BLS units. Fairfax County along with Ashburn’s Co. 6 and/or Co. 23 run multiple EMS calls per day into Sterling. Hamilton’s Co. 17 and Round Hill’s Co. 4 often run calls into Purcellville because Co. 14 doesn’t have any units in service, ALS or BLS. What is 24/7 coverage when not a single EMS unit is in service or they only get one unit in service as is often the case in Sterling when on a daily basis they consistently go 2-3 calls deep? This is why Fairfax County recently started charging patients in Loudoun County for EMS transport services. These citizens in Loudoun pay taxes to support the Fire/EMS services they hope to receive, and then turn around and may likely have to pay hundreds of dollars if they call 911 for an ambulance.

For example: as this call in question was clearing, the EMS Battalion Chief, EMS 601 was enroute from this call in Lovettsville to another critical ALS call in Lucketts Co. 10’s first due to assist Co. 10’s Ambulance and Engine. He asked dispatch for a rundown of the ALS units available in the County because they seemed to be getting thin. Dispatch came back over the radio to report that the Medic unit from Co. 13 who had also just cleared from the cardiac arrest in Lovettsville was the only available medic unit along the Route 7 corridor from Leesburg east to Fairfax County. All other Medic units in Leesburg, Ashburn, and Sterling were either on calls or out of service all together.

As the Chiefs and Company Presidents squabble back and forth in Loudoun County, one has to ask the question, “Who do all of these answer to when they refuse to take responsibility and ask for help when it is needed?” There are two groups who have been kept so completely in the dark about the issues in Loudoun, because individuals hide the truth and misrepresent their current capabilities to provide the service for which they receive tax dollars to provide, and even fundraise for! These two groups in the dark are the general public whom Fire/EMS claim to serve, and the County Board of Supervisors. Let’s ask both Career and Volunteer leadership to own up to their mistakes and sort comings. Let’s hold them accountable for their actions and lack of actions! I don’t care if the person coming to help me is getting paid to do so or not, I care that they’re well trained, well equipped, and that they’re coming from a short distance when I call!
 

To everyone who is bashing the leadership of Company 12, and praising Mr. Corder, you may want to get the facts instead of continuing to make unsupported comments. There was a very thorough investigation of the "workplace harrassment suit" that the Union threatened Co12 with. The Union even wrote a letter to Chief Deli's employer. The investigation which was conducted by a Loudoun County investigator found no support of the allegations brought by the Career Staff. A letter was sent to Chief Deli's boss stating so. However, despite the fact that the allegations were not supported, Mr. Corder and the career staff recevied no discipline. To their credit though, Co12 did ask several of their members who clearly stirred the pot to leave the organization. Despite that though, the career staff at Co12 is allowed to do whatever they want, and the Leadership at Co12 remain "guilty until proven innocent". People need to get the facts. Look for the facts and make your own assessment. Don't take someone elses opinion as fact. Don't jump to the conclusion that the only answer to the issue that occurred is to add career staff. That may be what CO12 does, maybe not. If that is the solution, what you should be asking for is policies that require the career staff to stay in the first due. No more grocery shopping in Brunswick, no more "training" at Purcellville. No more flying remote control airplanes on duty like Mr. Green did. Being way out of position and simply marking responding on the radio is not meeting the standard. Stations are located geographically so the time to the location is managed, not the time to "pushing to talk" on the radio.
 

Only to inform the poster above and address some of the wrong claims made in regards to Company 14 Purcellville Rescue.

At time of the call 14 was an in service medic unit.

That, however, has nothing to do with the dispatch order or anything else regarding the 12 call.

Its for information only.

Further, 14 does not regularly go on dual response as is claimed, far from it.

14 is completely 24/7 volunteer and actually does provide 24/7 coverage. Its crews run from the station, living and sleeping there 24/7

if 4 or 17 are working 14 first due, its because the 14 unit is already out serving a call. Unlike the East, our call volume does not mean we need to put up one of our other two units regularly. However, we can easily do so if the situation dictates. Similarly, if 14 is in either 4 or 17's due, its because those respective companies are already out serving another call.

14 never "ghost's" a unit onto the board either. 14 only put up what they can physically run out.

14 provides BLS, ST, and on up to Paramedic level coverage for our first and second dues and also provide active regional medic coverage in rotation.

Despite your claims Sir or Ma'am, you will find 99.9% of the time 14 is ready to "tone out" for our first and second due calls 24/7. If this was not the case, they would have a career supplemental staff, which they do not at this time.

Again nothing to do with the 12 call, merely to address your obvious concerns about coverage and qualifications regarding CO 14
 

Sounds like great fiction to me! At the time of dispatch there was No medic with 14** on the board. CT 801 covering regional was filling in for a few hours for someone else who had to go out of the area on personal business. In fact at the time of dispatch CT 801 was the only CT up west of Leesburg.

Yes, I too look at the CAD from time to time and see units dispatched into Co. 14's first due while there are no units from 14 on any calls. Granted that Co. 14 is not as bad as others.
 

Based on the last posting, understand that just because no medic was listed on the CAD for Co14 doesn't negate one was running. Frequently, the western end medics work out internally who is the 'regional' medic while volunteer medics man their stations at Companies such as 14, 17, and 12. On the morning of the incident at Co12, Co14 was fully manned.
 

This is interesting, how can the ECC dispatch a medic if they arent listed in service in the CAD? Perhaps 14 should be more vigilant in calling in their staffing.
 

All of the people posting anything with the phrase "nothing to do with the lovettsville call" in it should stop posting about themselves and their station i.e. company 14. You had nothing to do with the call until you posted on here about yourselves. You are irrelevant to this debate in all ways and serve no purpose in forming a solution thus far. Please stop posting about your company and what you do or don't do. If you wish to tell people how great you are at getting out the door feel free to start another thread or perhaps create a website. You are doing nothing but placing more spin on the story and detracting from the severity of the problem at hand, being that company 12 DID NOT PROVIDE SERVICE in a timely manner.
 

The vols are all banding together, this is common in politics. Stalin started the trend, when they someone is caught in a bad situatation, if you scream and throw blame elsewhere as much as possible people might believe it.

Thats whats happenning here. A volunteer company clearly messed up, so 14 who has a great relationship with 12 decides to start yelling something totally unrelated to shift blame. If you look at it from a distance its transparent.
 

I believe whom ever the Medic was at Co. 14 that did not contact dispatch, to notify them that Co. 14 was running a Medic unit, should also be held at fault here. If you walk into a station and get on a unit that is in service you have just assumed the legal "Duty to act", however if you don't notify dispatch that you're a medic unit, and miss an ALS call your unit should have been due on, you have just breeched that "Duty to act". Does this sound like an EMT lecture! Maybe there needs to be some real follow on that with Loudoun County, Might be a great news story one day if someone was really in need and you all missed the call.

Oh, by the way, if a Medic from Co. 14 was in house and running that day, why didn't they use common sense enough to just add onto the Cardiac Arrest call knowing that Co.13 had to come from much farther away?
 

I am a very dedicated volunteer medic of Loudoun and I am a career provider in another jurisdiction. I have avoided this as long as I can because I did not want in any way to be involved with the issue at hand, but then someone involved Company 14 of which I have a lot of pride. I am not going to comment on the �Lovettsville call� due to not being a member of Company 12, but I will comment on the Company 14 issue. PVRS has a very solid and dedicated group of volunteers. PVRS is indeed a completely volunteer organization, and in this day and age that is something to be extremely proud of. PVRS does have 2 medic units but PVRS does not keep them both in service unless they are staffed. There is always a unit in service in Purcellville unless it is out on a call. PVRS never has BOTH units out of service. Very rarely is Company 14 on �dual response�, which means we don�t have a crew at all and we let all of the companies in Loudoun County know that by being on dual response. I would easily say that 99.9% of the time there is a crew in PVRS ready to respond. As for the morning in question there was a crew in the station but at the time of dispatch for the �Lovettsville call� our crew was at the hospital with a patient that they had just transported. There was not a medic in Purcellville that morning but there was an EMT-Enhanced that was on the unit at the hospital. So before anyone states that PVRS did not even have a unit in service at that time is completely out of line. Sir or madam please get all of the facts before you spout off about PVRS and make sure that you give all of the facts. The facts that you leave out may indeed be the most important. Company 14 is my home and I will defend her so please leave us out of the equation. Thank you to those that have defended and spoke up for Company 14 and shame on you that bash her.

Repectively,

A very proud member of PVRS
 

Great for you "proud member" but you and your station are once again irrelevant to this entire problem. You however added plenty of useless information. If you feel the need to justify yourself feel free to show up on calls or staff another unit during the day.
 

Nah the Co. 14 member cleared up that they didnt have a medic up at the time of 12's debacle. THey negated what these other trouble makers are trying to stir up and place blame where it doesnt need to be, and its refreshing to see a vol that actually has a little pride in their station, good to them. If it was this way more often perhaps the career v. vol. issues wouldnt be as severe.
 

The incident in question is far from being solved. Fingers are being pointed in every direction except where the true problem stems from. Staffing. Home response is NOT staffing your stations. Being in your station and ready to respond IS staffing your station. I believe the county has paid personnel in station 12 from 6am - 6pm but does Lovettsville do the same when they go home? I doubt it. Everyone needs to stop looking for excuses and go back to the real problem. STAFFING.
 

Mr. Statter

It seems as if this situation has been forgotten. Was there an investigation and if so what did it find? As a taxpayer and resident of Lovettsville, I wouldlike to know what has happened and if any changes are in the plans. Please don't let this issue get the good ole sweeper treatment. Thank you Mr. Statter for bringing this to our attention and please don't stop doing what you do.
 

i think company 14, and ct 801 should be left out of this whole situation. they dant do anything to get involved. i dont think 12 should be brought into this eather. i wish this whole matter of finger pointing would stop.we are soupose to work to geather as emts and firefighters to keep this county working smothly. we need to start working as a team.we need to let by gone's be by gone's. i think we need to start over and work on more important matters. i think every firecompany and rescue squde in this county are wonderful working hard bunch of men and wemon. let's not runion a good county. thanks for lisening.
 

i feel that the delis are not careet haters. the delis are what keep 12 up and running. they are what keeps co 12 alive and running. they are what makes this station shine. i wish that we could find ways to show people that we are a good rescue squde.i wish that the finger pointing would stop and that we could all learn to get along. i wish that all the fire companys and rescue squdes would find peace and forgiveness to all this mess. thanks for lisening.
 

Dave, I think you need to dig a little deeper into Loudoun County and the State of Virginia EMS. With the call in Lovettsville, Brunsick's ambulance is 3 miles away and was never dispatched.
If Loudoun County has a response time limit for a failed call, then why wasn't the next closest ambulance dispatched. It shouldn't matter if its ALS or BLS.
Everyone is getting caught up in the Advanced Life Support service. A regular ambulance could heve started CPR and meet a medic unit enroute to the hospital.
The biggest concern I see is that Loudoun County only wants to take care of Loudoun County and don't want help from the surrounding areas for ambulance service, nor ask for ambulance service help. They have no problem using fire service help. They also don't want to send their units out of the county as well. They will even send a Loudoun County ambulance past an out of state's ambulance company building just to get back into the Loudoun. (Lovettsville going to Neersville through Brunswick)
The reason that I have heard for not having non-Virginia ambulances coming into Virginia is that the ambulance providers must follow Virginia protocols. And that any Virginia ambulance That leaves the state they looses their right to operate.
This is not only a Loudoun County thing but a State of Virginia thing as well.
Just ask any of the companies in Maryland that has to deal with Virginia.
Its time people came into the 21 Century. The Potomac River is should not be a dividing line and Virginia saying stay over there and we will stall over here. What has happened to commond sinse where ambulances, no matter where they are, operate off their own protocols and take care of the person that needs help. That person don't care if help is from the north or the south, they just want help.