STATter 911

"Nope, we don't need paid guys here on nights and weekends!"
 

Why does the County allow this to happen? When are the citizens or for that matter, the Volunteers going to wake up and do the right thing and ask for help with staffing? Chief Deli, wake up, you are a professional in Fairfax County.
 

"One hundred years tradition unimpeded by progress".
 

Hey Dave juat so you are aware Volunteer Chief Mike Deli is a Career Battalion Chief in Fairfax County, bet he would not let this happen when he is working down in Fairfax so why should he let it happen in his home town!!!
 

This occurs all the time in rural areas. One paid station centered in a large county, with miles and miles of roads and mountains...numerous volunteer stations, with little or no manpower on-station the majority of the time...here in Berkeley County, WV we can almost always count on at least a 30 min. response time. 2nd and 3rd-due calls are common. The alternative? Taxes, and more taxes. That's the only way to be able to have a paid force. The Fire and Ambulance services can't even collect a lot of the fees that are leveled per household/business entity.
 

This is a common problem in rural areas. One paid station, centrally located and several volunteer companies spread throughout the county. Few volunteers on-station at any given time. Miles and miles of roads, many mountainous...here in outlying parts of Berkeley Co., WV we can almost always count on a 30 min. response time. The solution? Full-time paid career firefighters/EMT's at every station, of course...which means increased TAXES. This county can't even get people to pay the mandatory fire and ambulance fees. Frankly, a 13-min. response time would be a blessing here.
 

Glad someone finally noticed what has been going on at Lovettsville for years. The volunteer leadership, Fire Chief Mike Deli and Rescue Chief Karen Deli (wife)are career haters from way back. There is virtually no cooperation within the county fire-rescue system with no attendance at Fire Council or Fire Commission meetings and little participation on the EMS side other than to complain about the career side. It's amazing how Mike Deli be a "professional" Battalion Chief in Fairfax County by day and such a career hater at night and weekends. Oh, and just so the public knows, Lovettsville also does not allow their career staff to work on half of the holidays each year, the only station in Loudon County to maintain this practice. Is this really still happening in 2008?
 

Anyone ever think that, even if they wanted to, many local governments CAN'T AFFORD TO HIRE EXTRA CAREER FIREFIGHTERS? Sad, but true....

We all know/think its very important, but someone once put it to me this way: "What do most citizens want more, a well staffed fire truck or their trash picked up?"

Most residents never have a fire, but everyones got trash a few times a week....
 

Everyone wants to jump on the band wagon to beat up the volunteers and no one is looking at the other issue here. How may "fossil farms" don't have adequate equipment to provide the care that their residents need. I can't imagine an assisted living complex with out AED's, yet here is one and no one is asking why.
 

I hardly consider a 47 year old man a "fossil". How this guy( the volunteer chief) can look himself in the face and say he is looking out for the community. If this guy hates career people so much, tell him to quit his CAREER job in Fairfax and become a full time professional volunteer. What a f---ing tool.
 

See this just goes to show you that the "Two-Hatter" issue isn't limited to DC/PG. Even over in Va it is the same thing. I love my paycheck from my paid job, but my hear is with my volunteer dept. True sign of a scab. The bottom line is, you have a service to provide, provide it.
 

You got the CAD report - have you listened to the radio traffic? Initial dispatch reportedly did not activate minitors / receivers and Co. 12 reported this and then the tones were dropped. That would delay response. Also - patient showing signs of lividity?? Obviously there were some issues on this call - let's get the facts.
 

To the person writing the last comment. No, I don't have the audio and have not listened to it.

I have tried since Wednesday evening, right after I first heard of this incident, to contact Chief Delsi. I received no response. I was told yesterday that Karen Delsi would be calling me today. I would be glad to put on anything they have to say about this call or the circumstances. If this is a radio communications/paging problem I am just as interested.

I have also never indicated this man would have lived if there had not been earlier intervention. That is not the point of the story. The story is about whether the service was there or not and trying to determine if it will be there in the future.

Look at the story again. This is not one about bashing volunteers. In fact, all of the citizens we talked to had good things to say about the volunteers at Lovettsville.

Clearly, when the ambulance goes out driver only there is a staffing issue. There is certainly an argument to be made, as some have already done in the comments section, that for many places in the country getting out of the house in 13 minutes would be a good thing.

Talking to neighbors, I thought it was interesting that they all seemed to understand how difficult it is to recruit volunteers in many jurisdictions. Especially in an area where there has been rapid growth and change.

I do not know if this is an isolated incident at Lovettsville or for Loudoun County. I would like to hear the view of the Lovettsville leadership. I would also like to see the bigger picture of failure rates and late responses county-wide to better put this in perspective. Maybe it is something we will FOIA.

Thanks for your input.

Statter
 

Mr Statter in your report it is said that there was a delayed response to a "dying man". One of the persons interviewed also seemd to think the man was dying. Maybe you should look up the definition of lividity...the man was long dead to have this. So the units were not responding to a "dying" man but a DEAD man. The nursing facility should have known earlier and should have a AED! Lots of these facilities don't. They also don't have well trained staff. They just take the persons money, feed them crap (balogna) and nothing gets said about their responsibility. I have seen a nursing facility like this one that charged 3000.00 a month and fed the older folks mac and cheese, balogna...stuff they probably should not eat. Do more research before reporting stuff like this. Try to find the cause of death, approximated time of death that kind of stuff before you stir up a lot of stuff because you have only part of the story.
 

Livor mortis or postmortem lividity or hypostasis (Latin: livor—bluish color, mortis—of death), one of the signs of death, is a settling of the blood in the lower (dependent) portion of the body, causing a purplish red discoloration of the skin: when the heart is no longer agitating the blood, heavy red blood cells sink through the serum by action of gravity. This discoloration does not occur in the areas of the body that are in contact with the ground or another object, as the capillaries are compressed.

Coroners can use the presence or absence of livor mortis as a means of determining an approximate time of death. The presence of livor mortis is an indication not to start CPR, or to stop it if it is in progress. It can also be used by forensic investigators to determine whether or not a body has been moved (for instance, if the body is found lying face down but the pooling is present on its back, investigators can determine that the body was originally positioned face up).

Livor mortis starts 20 minutes to 3 hours after death and is congealed in the capillaries in 4 to 5 hours. Maximum lividity occurs within 6-12 hours
Above definition from Wikipedia.

In your story and FOIA info the nurse on the scene started CPR! How about bring her down for starting CPR! Another mistake of the "Nursing" facility!
 

Not to be sarcastic, but I am not writing STATterNursingHome.com. Thanks though for the tip. I will see if our medical unit is interested in it.

We can discuss semantics all day long if you would like (I have been accused of being anti-semantic), but I would rather focus on the issue of fire/EMS response. Whether it was because pagers didn't sound or lack of staffing, there clearly was a response problem on this call based on the current standards in Loudoun County.

Would the response have been any different if the call at that hour and on that day had been for witnessed cardiac arrest of someone without other medical issues?

I think that's the operative question here.

Statter
 

I think some people need to stop trying to turn this into a bash on the assisited living facility in order to cover the asses of a bunch of incompetent volunteers. It was only a matter of time before something like this happened to hopefully open the eyes of the citizens of Lovettsville. Thank you for bringing this to light Mr. Statter. Maybe now people will realize that paid staff is needed 24/7, not just during weekdays.
 

The bottom line is that LVFD needs to wake up and admit they need the help. Yes, I do realize that there is a shortage in budgets across America, but in NOVA, I don't find this to be an excuse. I hope that, now that somebody has died, things change. Now for Berkeley Co, WV. I just happen to be from that county (born and raised), and have many friends in the the fire service in that county. I just happen to know of an Engine Company that everybody hates and says Quote "We don't need them, the volunteers can handle everything." This Engine Company is staffed by 4 guys Monday-Friday 6a-6p. They operate in a "support role" to the volunteers. They are not a fire department but is there because of an agreement between the county commission and the Vol. fire companies mad in 1988, because the volunteers needed help. I'm not the smartest man in the world but, call volume probably would not have decreased in 20 years. So before you bitch about Berkeley County's fire service, think about it when you put them in service and you are driver only going to a vehicle accident with entrapment.
 

It is not bashing assisted living. It is showing the whole picture! Not just the side the union wants out there. It is about not concentrating on one part of the picture but looking at the big picture. There is a lot more to blame besides the volunteers. Focusing on just one thing, no matter what it is, is wrong. You can't say it is all the nursing homes fault or all volunteers fault. Bottom line is volunteer or paid staff...the guy would still be dead. Response time is the issue. Dispatch also played a part in this mess when the station was not alerted correctly. So who is bashing now? You are! It seems you would be glad to have it all blamed on the volunteers. LOOK AT THE ENTIRE INCIDENT BEFORE JUDGING ANY ONE PART!
 

I do understand this issue, in the times of raising costs the volunteers fill the gap and want to be on the Ambulance. As far as the paid side goes they are under-trained and don't want to be on the ambulance. They are fireman by god...

Give me a volunteer over paid any day.
 

To the last person who stated the paid side is "under-trained"? How can you honestly say that? The career personnel are all certifed at a minimum as EMT-B's amongst other certs. They also go through continuing education every year. Last time I checked, none of the career staff responded driver only on an ambulance. And to the post before that one, you are probaly right that the guy was beyond "saving", but can you honestly say a 13 minute response time is acceptable? Get your heads out of the sand. I am not bashing the volunteers, but if you messed up, own up to it. Look at how the problem can be fixed. And what is "Give me a volunteer over paid any day"????? I am sure everyone wants the volunteer who couldnt be a career guy because they couldn't pass a physical or had a criminal background to come to their house and take care of them.
 

"Anyone ever think that, even if they wanted to, many local governments CAN'T AFFORD TO HIRE EXTRA CAREER FIREFIGHTERS? Sad, but true...."


Not true....Taxes are much higher in Loudoun than in Fairfax. Loudoun is one of the richest counties in the nation. The B.O.S. chooses not to hire career and protect the citizens of Loudoun County because they are afraid of the volunteers!
 

To the poster whos satd he was a "true scab"-your heart might be with the volunteer system but get hurt off duty and see if that loyalty will pay your bills.It's nice to be loyal, but you also gotta remember where your bread is buttered.
 

Actually, I think the troubling thing here is that Loudoun County Fire/Rescue still has to rely on pagers and alerting systems in the year 2008. There really is no excuse for not having trained, competent personnel at the station with the ability to respond to an incident in a timely fashion.Loudon County is not a poor county by any stretch of the imagination and it's citizen's deserve better fire/rescue services than this.
 

It doesn't matter if the call was a Cardiac Arrest or a Stub Toe, if EEC had a hitch or not, when the tones did dropped, there wasn't an 'in house' crew to respond, period. All the comments about 'assisted living facility', 'Lividity', the bashing on both side, are all irrelevant. If CO12 is to survive, they have got to change the way they operate. No more running from home. If you are on duty, then you are 'in house' for the entire shift. Do something about the 12x12 closet with the 4 bunk beds shoved in it, do something about the policy of not taking apparatus out to pick up something to eat, do something about all the rules that only apply to the outer circle. If that means a management change, then it's time the MEMBERS took a stand and started putting the PRIDE back into the HOUSE. The leadership either takes responsibility for this (and other instances not reported anywhere), makes changes, or the volunteers can count the days before the County steps in. It's a 24/7 operation, staff it 24/7 and stop making excuses.
 

I wasn't bitching about Berkeley Co. I was simply stating the fact that there are worse response times than what happened in Loudon Co. Those of us who live in rural areas accept this as one of the sacrifices we make to live outside of the city. Full-time paid companies would be great....but will the voters approve a tax increase? Doubtful! It is what it is...I personally have the highest regard for paid and volunteer firefighters/EMT's. My two son-in-laws have been both here in the Panhandle (and one is now paid Fairfax Co.). Until the citizens and county governments come up with the money it takes to support paid forces, the volunteers can only work with what they have. There's no such thing as an EMS draft.
 

I wonder how quick folks would have gotten to the station if it was a box instead of a medical call...

I am a volunteer in the LoCo and I think it's asinine that 12 does not have a vollie crew on duty when the career staff isn't there. Granted, 12 is a slow ass station and it'd be boring as hell to sit around all day, but thats what training is for. Hell, buy a nice TV and a Wii or something.
 

Dave, Please look into Loudoun's many other issues such as failure rates and delayed responses in the busier stations. Sterling and Ashburn Rescue come to mind to mind first. Also as a Loudoun County resident, each year I'm told that the volunteer system consists of 13,000 members. If that's true, then how come there are so many issues on nights and weekends? I heard that the true number of volunteers in Loudoun is closer to 300-400. I was told that Loudoun Volunteers use life members, retired people, social members, kids at college and past members who don't reside in Virginia anymore to reach this inaccurate representation. What's the truth in all of this?

Concerned Loudoun County Resident
 

PG County vol. stations fail on calls all the time and its acceptable. Thats how Kentland runs so many calls. Engine 817 or Truck 817 responding??? Engine 838 responding??? Engine 823 responding??? Engine 813 responding??? With the paid maids on the ambulances, there should be plenty of volunteers around to run the suppression equipment. Also if you have a fire going on(remember staffing stations, not apparatus) anywhere in the county and you need an ambo the next avail. is usually 15 min away, hows that for adequate response times. Dave you should have PSC give you a list of all pg's failures to respond, or Call for an ambo between the hours of 3-5pm or 5-7am.
 

We are all here for the good of the community. There are problems on all sides. The volunteers have longer response times and the paid put their medics on fire equipment with no way to provide advanced care. Everyone just needs to work out these issues and move on. Also remember that the volunteers have run hundreds of calls this year without issue.
 

Dear All,

This is not "out-of-the normal" for the Lovettsville Volunteer Fire and Rescue Company. On numerous occasions they take more than the allowed 5 minutes to get there apparatus enroute to the incident. It seems to be happening atleast once a week. I agree with the below comments. If this was an ongoing problem in Fairfax County where Chief Mike Deli is a professional career Battalion Chief, He would not allow that, but how does someone come to your home station and let your community down by not providing the proper service. In my personal opinion "ASK FOR STAFFING". It's the right thing to do.

If the company in Lovettsville doesn't cooperate at provide the service to commmunity, then what is the purpose of having them there? Maybe Loudoun County should take over the station completly and put 24/7 staffing in there. I know one thing for sure, if there was 24/7 staffing there this discussion would not be happening.
 

As I sit here and read this it blows my mind on how I am listening to in Loudoun Co. that there is another station staffed in the same mannor that station 12 is and they are getting response checked for an unconscious person. By the way it is 8:30am on a Saturday morning. Just thinking that they should have some fulltime Staffing.
 

Dave-If you really want to do something, then look in to all aspects of this case. Get the facts, publish the facts. Here are some areas to explore:
1-you are already exploring CO12's response
2-You were a dispatcher-why did it take the 911 center 2.5 minutes to dispatch the call? Their performance needs to be looked at.
3-You should look in to the assisted living facility. 7 of 8 inspections in the last 2 years identified violations. Why can't you find the RN listed on their webpage in the Virginia directoy of licensed medical personnel?
4-if there was career staff at each station-where would they be? Look in to how much time the career guys spend out of the station/first due. What is the policy of taking 2nd calls? They won't come off the engine to take out a 2nd ambulance. Do the citizens know that?
5-The career staff made accusations against CO12 which were not supported by a detailed investigation. The career staff have destroyed property and threatened Chief Deli in his workplace. Why were the findings swept under the rug by Rambo and Pozzo?
6-the career side bashes the volunteers and say its time to put in professionals. The Union is trying to take over every station. They don't care about service. They just want jobs. Why don't you look at how many of the union members are volunteers at their home stations? How come they are not pushing for their home stations to get career staff?

It's time for ALL of the dury laundry to come out. The biggest volunteer bashers in the county are Pozzo and Rambo!
 

I have to wonder how many of the volunteer-bashing lies and misinformation about LVFR's average response times have been posted by anonymous coward career staffers. It seems that nobody has all the facts, yet many are quick to jump to judge Chief Deli (both of them) as bad leaders or folks who lack dedication. How embarassing. But I guess it makes good sensationalistic headlines, no?

The truth be damned- let's throw some more fuel on the fire and burn all volunteers at the stake. That's pretty much how the career "professionals" feel about it. The sad thing is that this incident will only be used as yet another thinly veiled attempt to try and push more career staffing at places where it isn't really needed.
 

I am sure all the paid firefighters in this county love this story. Just remember, there a tons of past stories of PAID firefighters killing patients in back ambulances. Some of the best volunteer fire and ems departments are right here in Loudoun County. For example, the volunteer EMS system in Loudoun county is able to provide more medications and treatment to its citizens then any paid system in the washington, DC area. And, PLEASE I wish these paid firefighers in Loundon County stop acting like they are real firemen like in the major cities, they are always wearing FDNY logo's, like they are always fighting fires. Wake Up, there are VERY little fires compared to EMS related calls. If the county wants more paid firemen, then have them do other things while working their shifts, like providing other county services (ie; painting, cleaning county buildings), and when they get a fire call then they can respond.
 

I have been reading all the comments that have been posted so far and I have to say I AM SHOCKED! I am new to Loudoun County and recently built a house in Lovettsville. Not too long ago I was visited by a few of the volunteers asking for donations and explaining who they were and what they did. They told me about the hundreds of hours of training they did, the different emergency calls they responded to and the other requirements needed to be volunteers. Funny thing is, they never mentioned the career firefighters that work at their station. After they left with a donation, I felt good that my family and property were protected by them. Now I am sitting here very confused as to why they didn't mention the fact about the career firefighters. Were they ashamed of it, did they just forget to mention it or did they just plain flat lie to me? How many other people did they visit that day and forget to mention the career personnel? I own a business that relies heavily on community voluteers to help others during times of tragedy and pain. Every year I publicly thank them by hosting a large gathering to acknowledge their time and talents. I don't try to hide it. I also have many full time employees because I realize that my volunteers can't be there everyday and for every project that my company works on. I also acknowledge my employees. This is why I am so confused as to why nothing was ever said about the career firefighters when I graciously gave them a donation. I plan on visiting the fire station soon to ask this same question in person and if I determine that I was lied to, I will ask for my donation back! You can't run a business on decite and false statements - and I am sure that you can't run a fire station on them either. As a resident of Lovettsville I only want what's best for my family and every other family that lives here. To the volunteers that came to my house that day I ask this - if you need help please ask for it. I am not posting this to seem like I have an issue with anyone but I ceratinly don't want to wait13 or 14 minutes to get someone to help me or my family should we need it.

A very concerned resident of Lovettsville
 

Mr. Statter I urge you please for the sake of the citizens of Loudoun County, do a full investigation into this incident and the many others that have occurred in the past. The truth has gone untold for far too long. It's not just a Lovettsville issue, it's a county-wide issue. There is no reason in this day and age that there is a Fire & Rescue response time of 13 minutes just to get out the door or not even get out the door at all, as has been the case in other incidents. And getting out driver only DOES NOT count, what good are you doing really? As for the wonderful folks who respond to these emergencies whether they be volunteer or paid, DO NOT forget what your mission is...RESPOND to these emergencies and MAKE A DIFFERENCE in their outcome. DO YOUR JOB!!!!!
 

The last comment is the most ignorant statement I have ever seen. I have never seen a Loudoun Career firefighter wear any FDNY clothing. Having career firefighters paint county buildings and clean them is a great idea. Too bad they already do. They clean the filthy volunteer stations so the volunteers don't have to. Not that they would anyway. As for the "stories of paid men killing people in the backs of ambulances". Maybe they have. Maybe they have'nt. But rest assured that in Loudoun county if it was staffed by career firefighters or medics it got out in the prescribed time and with full staffing. The fact that some one would think otherwise is an obvious sign of ignorance or paid maid hater pride blinding them.The paid men and women act like they are real firefighters because they are in fact real firefighters. If you dispute this fact look at their performance evaluation or their job description the county used to advertise and hire those positions. You will find it says FIREFIGHTER/EMT. So until such time as the career department no longer answers to a volunteer fire commission I am sure they will continue to clean and paint Volunteer stations. Answer calls fully staffed and in the prescribed time limits and do it all without wearing any FDNY clothing. Please edjucate yourself on how the county fire service truly works and not how you wish in still did or should. Thank you for your time.
 

Learn how to spell!!!! It's EDUCATE, not edjucate! You must be paid staff!
 

To the concerned citizen that is questioning why you were not informed to there being career staff in Lovettsville. Go to the station between the hours of 6am and 6pm monday through friday, the career staff can answer your questions. The truth is the volunteers see paid staff as a necessary evil. They can't staff their stations in the day time because they themselves have jobs so they rely on paid county staff. They pick and choose if they want career staff in there and if so if they want them in there on weekdays, weekends, nights, or a combination. The volunteers do not want to admit they need help. Why??? Who knows for sure, maybe it's pride, the fire service has a history of not accepting progress. Rest assured you are not alone in being "lied" to. A few weeks ago the Loudoun County Volunteer Rescue Squad in Leesburg had an article done in the Leesburg Today about how they need money and volunteers to make ends meet. What they didn't mention was that they have a 24 hour 7 days a week career staffed medic unit, a 12 hour 7 days a week career staffed medic unit, and a 12 hour 7 days a week career staffed heavy rescue squad in that station. And it's not alone, there are career staff in almost every station across the county on weekdays, and a good amount of them have career staff in them on weekends and nights too. The point is, is that career staff do play an integral part in the fire & rescue services of Loudoun County whether the volunteers want to admit it or not. I strongly recommend that all citizens of Loudoun County go to their local fire houses and ask questions to both the career staff and the volunteers. Get informed. You owe it to your family to ensure a fire truck or ambulance is available all of the time.
 

In response to the career guys wearing FDNY shirts and not being real firefighters statement, you have no idea what is going on. The career people do clean the stations and get them ready for upcoming events. At the same time they make the station look presentable to the public. When was the last time you came to your duty crew to find a dirty station. Also the Career people have a uniform they must wear that has county logos on it and are not allowed to wear anything else. Jean shorts, tank tops and flip flops are not worn by the Professionals. What they wear off duty is up to them. You should get your facts right before posting a blog.
 

I think you have missed the real issue here. Let me try to explain it to you. I am a lawyer and have a brother who is a volunteer fire chief. I want to share a TRUE story with you that happened a few years ago. Names will not be given for reasons of law. By the way, I was the DEFENDING attorny for this case.

A situation, not very different from this, occured a few years ago only it happened to be a motor vehicle accident. The town was in a rural area of XYZ county located in South Carolina not very far from several major cities. Can you see the similarities? Anyways, two vehicles collided on a small two lane road and one of the drivers was pinned in their car and needed to be extricated with the jaws of life. A call was placed to 911 and the operator was given the location and details of the emergency. A very calm reassuring voice said that help was being dispatched. The operator asked several questions about the accident and then stayed on the line with the caller. During this time, first aid instructions were given to the caller so, at least some aid could be given to the trapped driver.

After several minutes (10 to be exact)the caller asked when help would be arriving and the operator said that they were alerted and would be there soon. Several more minutes passed and once again the caller asked "where were they"? The operator said to remain calm, that they were alerted and would be there soon. A firetruck and ambulance did finally arrive, tended to the pinned driver and transported them to the nearest emergency room. The driver did not survive the accident.

Several things happened after this accident and one was a story about it in the newspaper, which was later picked up on by a local news channel. This story was used to bring attention to the situation and to look for potential solutions. The vlounteer fire department declined to comment and later attempted to pass blame on the 911 operator and the original caller. Again, see the similarities?

The family of the victim filed a lawsuit listing the following as defendants:

Volunteer Fire Department
Volunteer Fire Chief
Asst. Volunteer Fire Chief
Volunteer EMS Lieutenant
The County of XYZ

I will not go into the long details of the trial but I want to share the outcome. The Volunteer Fire Department was fined 1 million dollars for failing to respond within an acceptable timeframe. The Volunteer Fire Chief was found guilty of negligence and was sentenced to 2 years in prison. The Asst. Volunteer Fire Chief and Volunteer EMS Lieutenant were found guilty of negligence and were fined more than 100,000 dollars. The County of XYZ was found guilty of negligence and fined 1.8 million dollars.

Here is why: The volunteer fire department had a past history of long response times and failed to correct the problem. The volunteer fire chief knew of the problem and failed to ask the County of XYZ for assistance.
The County of XYZ also was aware of the response issues and failed to correct the problem by placing county firefighters in the area. The remaing defendants were basically found guilty by association with the volunteer fire department.

Moral of the story is this. A volunteer fire department must operate under a set of standards, in this case the Court and jury referred to the NFPA standard for it's decision. If you are a FIRE CHIEF (Volunteer or Paid) you can and WILL be held accountable in a Court of Law for you actions (or non-actions).

Before anyone else has to defend themselves before a jury of their peers, I urge you to look at the realities and come to a resolution for this. BOTH Loudoun County and the Lovettsville Fire Deaprtment need to put down the gloves and find a solution. If Lovettsville needs help they MUST ask for it! If Lovettsville can't or won't, Loudoun County has to step in and put it there! This is not my opinion, it's the LAW. Believe me when I say this, I saw it happen.
 

It appears that once again the subject has become a paid vs. volunteer issue. Let's get straight to the point. It's shouldnt be finger pointing contest on who's who, but who was not providing the service on the morning in question. The career personnel are not stationed at Lovettsville on nights, week-ends and some holiday's per Lovettsville's request. If they do not want career personel, they need to provide the coverage! Once again, let's talk SERVICE. ALL citizens of Loudoun County deserve the same fire/rescue services albiet volunteer or career. If the company doesn't want career personel, they need to ensure the citizens are covered and obviously the morning in question this did not happen. It's time to swallow some pride and provide!!!! Stop letting the ego of someone who wants to play fireman or emt when it's convenient for them get in the way of providing, once again SERVICE!!!! Bottom line, a person died and the local ambulance didn't respond for an over extended amount of time. I do not think that things could get much clearer. So everyone that wants to make it a career vs. volunteer issue get your head on straight and stick to the facts. Who gives a crap if someone wore a FDNY shirt. Anyone can go to an expo and buy a shirt, so the person that talks about this needs to stop trying the cloud the facts and get back to the bottom line. SERVICE.
See there seems to be a common theme with my post. It's all about SERVICE, so Lovettsville needs to step up and do what's right by provideing a SERVICE!!!!!
There are plenty of stations in Loudoun that are combination and get along just fine. These combination stations work because of good leadership on both sides. This is something that is missing in Lovettsville atleast on nights, week ends and some holidays. I bet there isn't those kind of problems in Fairfax when Lovettsville's leadership is there working hand in hand with career people. If there were those kind of problems, maybe he wouldn't be a Chief Officer. Maybe that would be an answere for Lovettsville to try!!!
 

Well first let me start with the comment of paid men killing people in the BACK OF AN AMBULANCES. Where did they die, in the back of an ambulance right? So they were in the treatment of someone that probably got out the door with somebody else driving (which would constitute a staffed unit). As for the cleaning other county buildings comment, paid men don't have time. They are to busy cleaning up after the vollies, who had duty crew the night before. As for Loudoun County not running fires, very good, they only problem is that they don't run any EMS runs either. Compared to other local jurisdiction we are "SLOW" in all aspects of the game. As for the FDNY clothing comment, your just a idiot. Hey got a question for ya, what does your duty crew uniform consist of, a "I fight what you fear" t-shirt, a pair of cut off jean shorts and some flip-flops, last time I checked career personel are always in a uniform. As for the union trying to take over everything and create jobs in the county. NEWS FLASH thats what unions do. Also the last time I checked personel in stations = service. And to close I would like to say to the person comming on Pozzo and Rambo. It is CHIEF Pozzo and Commisioner Rambo to you. you may not like them but at least respect what they have done with their life.
 

Mr. lawyer,

Two years in prison on a civil suit?

Also, soveriegn immunity didn't rule the day as it often does?

Why would you not cite the names of the parties in this case? Seems to me it should be public record and well known within the fire service.

But the again, I am not a lawyer and don't even play one on TV or the Internet.

Statter
 

To the gentleman that said "swallow your pride and provide"...you're my hero
 

STATter 911 = "The New Watch Desk"
 

Since everyone is so quick to bash the staffing of Loudoun County Fire and Rescue Stations by career personnel, and the jobs that these men and women do, maybe they should look at some volunteer stations that ARE ALL volunteer and can't muster a crew and have to rely on Fairfax County to come and transport a patient to the hospital. Take a look at Sterling Rescue for example. How many times a day is this saying heard on the radio "Medic 15 for your second call?? Medic 439 respond" That is almost an everyday occurrence anymore on the East end of Loudoun County. How come you aren't bashing those people that can't get anything out the door? Why is it only one station, or just the career side? Everyone knows that there are jobs to be done, so do them. If you think that it’s all fun and games being a "paid" guy, maybe you should go through 26 weeks of recruit school and then see how "easy" it really is. Also, in response to the blog about how the career / volunteer relations at 12 are so bad, it is not all the career people that make it that way. When the volunteers sabotage apparatus so that the career people can’t even use it? How is that helping this situation or allegations against the chief of the department any? Its not, and there are more instances where things of the sort has happened at Co. 12. But do people ever hear about that? No, because the Career Staff is able to handle it. Just remember where you are now, and how you got where you are at. “Not a sermon, Just a thought.”
 

I know both career and volunteer fire/ems personel in
Loudoun County that are very professional in their jobs. I am also very knowledgeable about the money situation in the county. We can not continue to hire paid firemen throughtout the county. This county has a great volunteer system, and both side must work togather to inprove the system. I know the paid staff wants more people which will lead to more promotions. But we as taxpayers can't afford any more TAXES. I must say, that I do agree with some of the comments that maybe some of are career firemen need to be cross trained, meaning able to provide other county servcies when not responding to fire. It is done all the time in the private sector and other gov't services. It may be time that the fire service take a look into this because I have seen many reports that fires are down in the nation and that our county has very little real fires to continue hire new firemen.
 

I must agree, our county fire department can also provide other county services. I don't agree that they should be riding our trash trucks, but maybe they can do county expections of new homes and buildings, or even provide services in the school system.
 

Let me preface my commentary with simple statement of fact...I AM NOT A VOLUNTEER NOR A CAREER FIREFIGHTER.

It seems as though the real issue here is being lost in all the empty rhetoric being exchanged between volunteer and career folks.

You can cite any number of faults that led to this breakdown in emergency service provision. The volunteer company(ies); the 911 center; the County F/R Dept.; the nursing facility; and the beat goes on...

But as usual, nobody is willing to step up and take responsibility for their actions. Until that happens...you all are just "spitballing"...

EVERBODY'S AN EXPERT...NOBODY'S A PROBLEM SOLVER.
 

Firefighters and Police Officers are not there for what they do. They are there for what they MIGHT HAVE TO DO. They are there in case something happens. Career or volunteer makes no difference. The problem in this case is that when the call came in the volunteers were not there until 13-14 minutes into the incident. All the other things being brought up are veiled attempts to place blame elsewhere. The citizens of Loudoun County pay Taxes and therefore are entitled to services in return. The citizens were failed by the volunteers in lovettsville. Is the solution to put more career firefighters there on nights and weekends? Maybe it is. If that was done the problem would not occur again. Is the solution to post irrelevant issues or try to blame one side or the other? Most likely not. This issue will not be solved here. That is just a fact. Mr. Statter however has brought a very important problem to light and placed it in the court of public opinion, and that will work quicker and most likely more severely than any other form of investigation.
If the citizens are upset they need to let the Board of Supervisors know about it. Like I said before they have paid for a service that was not provided as it should have been. At the end of the day a person is still dead and a repsonse time of 13-14 minutes is just not acceptable. So continue to turn it into a career volunteer issue if you want. It's not one. It is a solely volunteeer issue. There was no career staff there on the day in question. Or any other weekend. Hopefully the Fire Commission will fix this issue and will do so soon.
 

Folks, please realize that the career firefighters in Loudoun County do a lot more than just sit and wait for calls. There are detailed maps that they create and maintain that are accurate to the individual address, they clean the stations, provide minor maintenance to fire and EMS apparatus, order all of the supplies used in a firehouse such as cleaning supplies office supplies EMS and Fire equipment. We are mandated by SOPs to participate in physical training for two hours per shift. In down time we are training. Other duties include doing safety inspections of commercial properties and garden apartment complexes. We clean the stations daily, clean the apparatus as needed. We ordinarily spend an hour every morning checking all of the apparatus in a station. We install child safety seats for the members of the community as well as installing smoke detectors as needed. In addition to these things on occassion at other stations you will find career staff helping in minor station renovations such as closing up the car port at Aldie to make an additional bay, paintinf station 16, and helping volunteer companies in developing specifications for new apparatus and following through until it is complete. As you can see there is not a lot that is intense and strenuous there is more than enough to keep the schedule full. We are mandated by SOP to be in some form of a uniform while on duty at all times throughout our shift. At no time and for no reason is an LCFR employee to be found on duty wearing FDNY or any other department's uniform items. It also appears that there is a significant misconception as to the role of the Union in this matter. As it was on a weekend, and by virtue of its membership requirment that only career staff be members, I'd say that this is a moot point, the union has not had a hand in anything up there since the hostile work environment complaint was filed. Please folks, advocate knowledge of the issues and all parties involved before making blanket statements about one or the other.
 

Yes, I do believe it is time for
Lovettsville to wake up and face
the facts. It is time to see paid
staff move in whether the Deli's &
Mungovan's want them or not. We, the people of the town would like to know that we are going to be taken care of in time of need.
Anyways, who would give a ___ in time of need whether it would be a
volunteer or paid career staff, at
least if their paid they would be
responding, not like the volunteers
who pick and choose their calls, or
in this case not respond at all.
I have also heard in the past few
months that Lovettsville marks
responding when they are still
sitting on the apron in front of
their station waiting on more
volunteers to respond so they have
a crew. Is this a problem?
 

Same exact thing happens in Frederick...I see it every shift. Life members who haven't ran a call in 10 years but on the run sheet it looks like they were on the call. If there are so many volunteer's why does equipment fail so much?

I'm told that the volunteer system consists of 13,000 members. If that's true, then how come there are so many issues on nights and weekends? I heard that the true number of volunteers in Loudoun is closer to 300-400. I was told that Loudoun Volunteers use life members, retired people, social members, kids at college and past members who don't reside in Virginia anymore to reach this inaccurate representation. What's the truth in all of this?
 

1)Folks should not move out to the rural areas without checking into the level of various governmental services they will likely receive. You should not move out to a rural area and be surprised when you don't have big city services.

2)If the community that the volunteers cover demand an additional service or increased level of service and the volunteers cannot provide it (for whatever reason), then the volunteers should ask for assistance in the form of career personnel to fill in the gaps.

3)The community needs to realize that the increase level of career staffing comes with a hefty price tag that must be paid.
 

Dave , in a perfect world this probably wouldn't have happened but we don't live in a perfect world and it did happen . So all of the name calling , mud slinging accusations being posted is not going to bring this individual back to life ! So a small suggestion , maybe you could be a mediator with Chief Pozzo , Lovettsville Fire and Rescue leadership , Loudoun Fire & Rescue Commission , and Sally Kurtz who is the representative for Lovettsville on the Loudoun County Board of Supervisors. Then maybe a solution could be worked out so anytime someone in Loudoun calls 911 they will have someone at their need in a reasonable amount of time whether it be Career or Volunteer or a combination of both
 

Dave - It looks like you have found another "Kentland" -- Congrats !!!!!
 

Dave. I have 25 years of service both volunteering and being career. This call is definetly not good for the volunteers or the citizens, and yes career staffing on the weekends would have solved this problem unless the career staff were out on a call and then the same problem would have occured, but instead of 13 minutes it would have taken 9 or 10 minutes to get the next career staffed unit there from either Purcellville or Luckets. There are definetly some ways that we could help fix some of these problems by making the career staffed engines with medics on them be a medic engine like Fairfax,Arlington,and Alexandria. There are some days that there are medics on the engines and have no ALS equipment to work with. As far as the times that dispatch has they are not totally correct for Volunteers or Career staff. The system we have now starts the units times before the units even hear the call. This makes Loudoun's response times alot slower than they really are again both Volunteer and Career. It's hard to take sides when you both volunteer and are career in another county both the volunteers and the career staffed involved in theses blog comments should take a look at what they wrote. Why are the career staff bashing the volunteers? Why are the volunteers complaining about career staff? They are only there because Loudoun has changed in the past decade to where there are not enough volunteers and we need career staffing to help get the job done. (Plain and simple) Again only the opinion of someone that has volunteered and worked in Loudoun and other jurisdictions.
 

To the person that posted the following:

"I must agree, our county fire department can also provide other county services. I don't agree that they should be riding our trash trucks, but maybe they can do county expections of new homes and buildings, or even provide services in the school system."

Obviously you do not have YOUR facts straight, because our paid guys do go out and do inspections of new buildings on a daily basis, they even do inspections on older buildings as well, they do relentless hours of training in order to provide better service to our community. Our paid guys also go to schools and teach students about fire prevention and have day care facilities and pre-schools come to the stations to learn about fire safety. What more would you like LCFR paid men & women to do? In between calls they are training, keeping up with the aparatus making sure everything runs properly and is stocked, they install car seats free of charge to the community to make sure our little ones in this county are safely and properly restrained. You should ask what the volunteers do in between calls, they leave the stations to have dinner, they stop by friends houses, they goof off, and they can't even respond to calls because they are too busy with their personal lives to make their so called "duty crews" which they took on the responsibility for. Let's just face the volunteers are getting lazy and can't do their hobby anymore, but instead of making a mature, responsible, and appropriate decision of asking for help, they would rather wait 13-14 minutes to respond to calls. It is a brave thing to be a volunteer and a paid firefighter, but it is an even braver thing to ask for help when in need of it. I understand that volunteers take pride in their stations, but they should also take pride in their communities and realize that making the citizens of this county wait 13-14 minutes before fire/ems arrive to the scene of a house fire, a person in cardiac arrest, or a motor vehicle accident is absolutely ridiculous, irresponsible,and above all unsafe. It does not make you a coward to ask for help, it makes you human.
 

I am a life member of Company 12,
and the reason of me leaving Co. 12
was because of all the bashing that
the Deli's put out in the monthly meetings about the career people.
Just look at the picture when Dan
Corder was at Lovettsville. Loudoun
County investigated the problems and for those who were investigaed
were asked to leave the Company by
the President and BOD. What's up
with that? Members can't even stand
up and tell the truth without getting throwed out of their own
community volunteer station. The
fact that I am trying to get across
is the Del's and Mungovan's need to be replaced with those who can
and would respect the values of
Company l2 and the leadership of
Loudoun County Fire and Rescue.
And for those who does not know and
have not read the newspaper; Mr
Dan Corrider received an honorable,
outstanding performance award for his leadership and commintment.
And yet, he could not stand the heat from Co. 12 inside forces.
Maybe Loudoun County had better back up and reinvestigate why he
asked for a transfer from l2.
 

As a member of a volunteer station in loudoun county and also a paid member of another department I believe two things. A lot of people volunteer and career need to realize they are here to provide a service to the community not for their own benefit. If you happen to get something back from your fire and rescue experience then good for you. But a majority of us out there do this job because we genuinely love to help people and want to be good at it. There is no picking and choosing the calls you want to go on. No matter the call, you as a member of a fire and rescue department have accepted the responsibility to answer it so get out of bed and go. The second thing I believe is that a combination system can work and will work in Loudoun County. The only thin gth e system needs is for everyone to recognize what their part is in the big puzzle and be capable of filling any spot that needs to be filled at a moments notice. We have surpassed the days of just running fire calls. So if thats what your here to do get it out of your thick head now and learn to love EMS because it's what pays the bills so to speak.
 

To the Life Member of CO 12. Get your facts straight....Dan Corder did not request a transfer, he was ordered to leave. He should of been fired for what he did....His award is just another example of Loudoun County Fire/Rescue rewarding bad behavior.
 

Dave,
Let me first say that I am not a volunteer or career firefighter/EMT.
What I will say is this: That the incident in question is unfortunate for both the LVFD and Loudon County.
One thing to keep in mind is that not all volunteers have a Monday through Friday job. Even if a volunteer works a M-F work week, their is a premium but on their time away from the job.Family duties, coaching youth teams etc all figure in to volunteers free time.
Another thing to consider is what if a person that is on "duty crew" gets called in to work or has to leave town on a moments notice for a family emergency?
Is there another volunteer willing to step up and take the extra shift?
I lived in Loudon County for over eight years and never heard one complaint about the Fire/EMS response times.
If it is true about slow response times or no response at all from the Lovettsville Fire and Rescue Department are true, all that needs to be done is look at the case of the Culpeper County Volunteer Resuce Squad.
CVRS had their ability to operate revoked by the State Department of Health for their response times and number of no responses when they were "toned out"
CVRS was " Out Of Service" for over a year. The whole situation was ugly between The State of Virginia, CCVRS, The Culpeper County Board of Supervisors, The Culpeper Town Council.
Luckily, the residents did not suffer from Company 11 not being able to run because Culpeper has paid EMT-Paramedics staffing two ALS units 24/7-365 and the dedicated volunteers from other stations that covered company 11's first due area.
Perhaps the folks from both sides of this incident should sit down and talk and come up with a solution so this doesn't happen again.
I'm willing to bet that the folks of CCVRS and Culpeper Emergency Services would be willing to help if asked.
 

Wrong again, the former Captain requested a transfer due to the fact that he was smart enough to see that the issues with the volunteer dictatorship were going to be swept under the never ending carpet that blankets Company 12. Please explain to all of us why the former career Captain has had excellent relationships at every other volunteer station he has been assigned to? Maybe it's time for the administration at 12 to take a look in the mirror, there lies the true problem.

The former Captain received his award from a national trade publication, not the Loudoun County Department of Fire, Rescue, and Emergency Management! So figure out which publication that was and maybe you can cancel your subscription!

The majority of the posts have turned into a career vs. volunteer Watch Desk style blog. The original story concerned the poor response times of an organization who failed to provide a fundamental service that all citizens expect. Whether or not this man was deceased before the call was placed, this department failed to provide what the citizens expect, PROMPT SERVICE! I have seen the blame thrown at the career folks as well as the Union. Did anyone stop to think that some of these posts are coming from some of the dedicated volunteers within the County who take this job seriously? And a word to the unwise on here, you should probably leave out the use of names when referring to specific individuals other than Dave himself.

With that being said I have a question for Dave. Since this blog has spurred out of this world views/responses, is it responsible to allow this to continue down the road it’s on and not weed out all of the non relevant posts? Is it responsible journalist to let this get so of track? Just curious.
 

To the person worried about posts that are off track. We either reject or accept posts and do not edit them.

The conversation can go in any direction the readers want it to go, with the exception of a few things that will get your comment rejected.

These are the same general guidelines many major news organizations use for anonymous comments attached to news stories. This includes The Washington Post.

I have found a lot of interesting comments on both sides mixed in with some that I could do without.

As for censoring, I will give you the same challenge I have given others who have brought this up. Send me an email to dstatter@wusa9.com listing the comments you would omit and your reasons why. I have yet to come up with good guidelines beyond the ones we have, but I am open to your suggestions. BTW, no one has yet taken me up on that offer.

Also, my read of all of this is that it is both distressing and refreshing to learn this isn't just a PGFD problem.

Statter
 

To all, let's not forget about Montgomery County. It's not a perfect world there either!
 

This thread has gotten ridiculously out of hand and off topic.

The response time was not acceptable in Loudoun County. It might have been okay in other counties, but that is not the issue here.

The obvious answer to prevent this from happening in the future is dedicated duty crews who are located in the station, or close enough to meet the 3 minutes response guideline for ALS calls.

If the volunteers can do that, great! If not, it is their responsibility to the community to requests career staffing during the times they cannot make the commitment. Since the county is ultimately responsible for emergency services, it is the county’s job to ensure that Company 12 does ask for staffing if needed.

The debate about career versus volunteer is not relevant here. If the appropriately trained staffing is available, it doesn’t matter to the patient if the EMT is paid or not. There are a large number of excellent career and volunteer providers in Loudoun. There are also a large number of complete idiots among the career and volunteer ranks.

Thank you to all who have kept posts on topic – encouraging the county can Company 12 to find a solution that provides better coverage to their area. To everyone who has come here to try to find fuel for your argument for or against career staffing, try spending more time actually providing a service to your community and less time bitching.

-Volunteer EMT, Loudoun County VA.
 

MoCo has nothing to do with this
 

Lovettsville Volunteer Fire and Rescue should be treated like what it is. A cancerous growth on the face of the county. If there is a cancerous growth on a person it is removed. The best way to deal with Lovettsville is to remove it from the equation all together.
 

To all those that think the volunteers do not have problems, why do units (Tower 606 for example) go out of service at night when the career staff goes off duty? Is it to hide the fact that there are not enough volunteers to run the calls and to prevent these units from scratching at night?
 

As a health care professional of 30 years, a former volunteer EMT with Loudoun County, and the spouse of a dedicated,hard working career firefighter with a stellar reputation for promoting harmony and cooperation amongst career and volunteer staff, I have a couple of comments.
Whether the poor patient central to this controversy was DOA with lividity or a viable save is less relevant than the issue of quality assurance. What if there had been a similar gap in response to a 12 year old in anaphylaxis after a bee
sting? What if it was any of ours' family member, career or volunteer?
Secondly, the volunteer leadership in question are widely viewed as promoting a hostile and intimidating environment, not just towards career staff, but also towards their own fellow volunteer staff who aren't on board with their disdain for the career staff. They,too are casualties of an environment where they are stifled from their full potential to serve the community.
Perhaps we are seeing KARMIC retribution???
 

Well, maybe if we keep our heads buried in the sand long enough, the problem will go away.
 

dave,

Please keep the pressure on both Loudoun County Fire/Rescue and Lovettsville VFD, because without pressure from the Media this isue will be swept under the carpet like most Volunteer response issue. I.E Sterling Rescue
 

Are we hearing that Mike Deli has a hostile attitude towards the career staff? I find that hard to believe, he is a career guy in Fairfax. Quite respected I might add. Sounds like a different Mike Deli to me.
 

If the staffing for a unit is not available for the night or day for that matter it is called out of service. You hear this from several stations throughout the county. What this does is save the time of waiting for it to scratch before it is replaced. I am not making excuses for units not being staffed. Hell I wish that all the units were staffed every night in the county. The fact is they are not and some stations are actively trying to come up with solutions to entice more volunteers into the system. Some of these tactics are working and The numbers are slowly climbing but it takes time to get these folks trained to a point of worthyness to make minimum staffing. I was all for the idea several years ago of making a volunteer pool of qualified folks who would be intersted in running another niht or on an oncall basis at other stations in the county. this wqould help all stations by taking some folks from the stronger houe=se and putting them into spots at other houses in need. How come this idea never took off?
 

I too am a life member at Co. 12. I have too fully agree with the previous post from another life member.

The Deli's have been the reason for an exodus of many, many career peersonnel as well as volunteers. They have even gone to the point of bringing charges against members who have spoken out negatively against them or who publicily have a positive view of career staffing. (In a country where free speech is not only allowed but GARUNTEED. Where one can speak out negatively about the President of the United States and not fear any raminfications).

It is sad to know that there were members of the department, some of more than 20 years and very involved with the department, who were forced to resign or get kicked out of the department for speaking negatively about the department's administration and for "hanging out" with the career guys (and gals). In fact I believe one life member, M. Elkon, was even stripped of his life membership as a result.

In reference to the comment about Dan Cordor, he is not the only captain or officer to ask for and receive a transfer from 12. But I will say.... If Danny couldn't get the job done at 12, I do not believe anyone can, until there is a change!!! Dan Cordor is committed to making a mixed system work. He treats all firefighters the same; career, volunteer, green, blue or orange. It makes no difference to him; he hasn't forgotten where he came from.

For those of you who believe that just because Mike Deli is a career guy he is pro career... THINK AGAIN!!!! You can ask any career person that has spent time at Co. 12 for there opinion on that.
 

If Mike Deli is so respected, why was he given a vote of No Confidence by his own Union?
 

The Rescue Chief of CO12 does not discriminate when it comes to her 'disdain' for the people she has to associate with in the county, career or volunteer. Most of the volunteers are treated as badly, if not worse, then the county personnel. RC12 runs CO12 with a 'my way or no way' attitude. She has run many of the volunteers off with her punishing approach to those she does not have total control over. Only her 'puppets' seem to fair well in the organization and their standing can change on a whim. It's to bad the Fire Chief is taking such a beating for wanting to keep the peace at home.
 

To the Brain Surgeon who stated that Chief Deli was given a vote of no confidence by his own union. If you are referring to Local 2068 in Fairfax, that would be an out and out false statement. Nothing in the realm of that ever happened. The local is not in the business of a vote of confidence on a Battalion Chief. Nice try on your character assination, but lies won't do.
 

I too am a Life Member with Co. 12. I can tell you that the Deli's are responsible for the exodus of a large number of career and volunteer perssonel.

Several members, some with over 20 years of service, have been forced out under the threat of being charged with conduct unbecoming. For talking to the career staff and/or for speaking negatively about the Deli's (in a country where free speech is not only allowed it is garuanteed and people are allowed to speak negatively of the President of the United States without threat of retaliation)
I understand that one life member, M. Elkon, was even stripped of his life membership.

About Dan Cordor, he is not the only captain to request and recieve a transfer out of station 12. But, if Danny couldn't make it work at 12 then nobody can!!! (without some change in leadership at the station) He is by far one of the biggest advocates of a mixed system and most certainly supports volunteers. Capt. Dan trains with and staffs the appartus with whomever is at the station; career or volunteer it makes no difference to him. He has not forgotten where he came from.
 

Mike Deli was not given a vote of no confidence from 2068, he was given the option to quit Lovettsville or to quit 2068. This came about because of his mistreatment of union brothers in Lovettsville through his position there as fire chief. And that came after pressure from the IAFF not just Loudoun's local. And to the brian surgeon who is sure to be upset by this, if its the truth, it isnt character assassination.
 

In reference to Mike Deli and 2068, the above post is more misinformation and false statements. Get your act together before you make false claims. And yes, Mike is a respected Battalion Chief in Fairfax, I hate to bust your bubble.
 

Ya know thats cool that he is a BC there and all but again, Mike chose to quit L2068 as opposed to 12. The issue went all the way to Shaitburger being contacted and putting pressure on the leadership of 2068. Mike was given the option and decided to quit. I understand he has been trying to get back in. He probably doesnt want to pay all of those back dues, oh well. But after comments he has made about LCFR employees right after they were killed, and with the continued treatment of the paid guys at 12 I hope his situation with 2068 remains unchanged.
 

The union has already taken a stand about their feelings about their members also volunteering in a department that has a local. They really don't like it when the person is a truly active volunteer in the combination department. In those cases, they often will bring pressure to those people to quit volunteering by threatening their union membership. I don't know Deli and so don't know as to how he treats folks good or bad or indifferent. I do know periodically, the unions do make a fuss about "2 hatters" and throw out the old "us or them" option. There is nothing wrong with that, the union is a private organization and can have their own membership rules just like any other private organization.
 

Dave, What is Chief Pozzo's plan to correct the response issue? He is the county Chief? The BOS made Loudoun County fire and rescue service a "Department" with Chief Pozzo in charge several years ago. What has he had to say about this issue? There apears to be lots of "Hiding going on" Is this fire to hot for the Chief? Just wondering?
 

Come on now, Chief Pozzo isn't the chief of all of Fire and Rescue, just LCFR, just the paid guys, and he is just one vote on the Fire and Rescue Commission. This is a Commission issue, not a Chief Pozzo issue, the poor guy is hamstrung, its not that the fire is too hot, its just that he isn't allowed to add on to the call.
 

How about looking at some facts? The investigation at CO12 a few years ago resulted in no support of the allegations made by the career staff. Chief Pozzo even wrote a letter to Deli's boss to that effect. Are any of you even remotely interested in facts or are you happier dragging everyone through the dirt? I know the facts may not be as juicy as you want. This sounds like McCain/Obama campaign rhetoric.
 

Facts? Why don't you publish ALL the facts. So to the supporter of Chief Deli, here they are:
1. Chief Deli and the Lovettsville FD were charged with creating and promoting a hostile work enviroment towards the county career staff assigned there.
2. The county did investigate the charge BUT it was done by a long time friend of Chief Deli. Hmmmm wonder how that played into the outcome?
3. Several volunteer members were dismissed from the company. Hmmmm wonder why? Did they speak out in support of the charge or were they quilty of the charge itself?
4. Chief Deli was also brought up on the same charges by the IAFF. Hmmm wonder why they too filed charges?
5. Chief Deli was given the choice to resign from the local or Chief of Lovettsville. Guess we all know what his choice was.
6. Chief Deli still continues to operate today as he did when the charges were filed. Hmmm guess somethings will never change.

So if you want facts, those are jst some of the true facts about Chief Deli.
 

Yeah, What he said!!!
 

Chief Pozzo had the investigation led by an "internal affairs" investigator who works for Loudoun County. Chief Pozzo must have felt that this person was unbiased. It is obvious that you only want to trash Deli. Here's a thought-why don't you ask Chief Pozzo if he thought the investigation was conducted fairly? I think the problem you have with Deli is that he had the "nerve" to provide appropriate direction to the career staff. Small example-always have a backer when driving appartus in reverse. Why don't you ask which "brother" damaged Kigers POV because they had no backer. But wait a minute, let's not let facts get in the way of the volunteer busting agenda that the union has here. Maybe its time for letters to go to the union about all the Loudoun 2 hatters.
 

there we go again no response on the holiday because rescue chief 12 refused to have career personel on some holidays heard she threatened to quit when it had been brought up a few years ago.Sorry she did not lovettsville resident ex vol left due to rescue chief 12
 

Holy cow! Does anyone ever proofread before they hit "Send"? Loudoun is suffering growing pains, but as long as the politicians are allowed to accept contributions from volunteer fire companies, there will be no changes. Heck, in only one year, we Loudouners went from being able to see what portion of our real estate tax dollars were allocated for Fire & Rescue to having that amount lumped back in (and thus, hidden) with a general real estate tax total.

Reading the articles in the various local papers (e.g., Independent, Leesburg Today, Loudoun Easterner) it was apparent that certain BoS members were pressured by VFD boards to "hide" the fact that I, as a taxpayer, indeed do pay for Fire & Rescue services, yet the volunteers in my area of Loudoun don't hesitate to schill for donations.

It's disingenuous, at best. Moreover, it is disheartening to know that MANY LoCo "volunteers" are paid staff in other area fire departments. Is the Car Tax break really that important? Running emergency calls certainly does not seem to be!
 

What does being paid in another jurisdiction have to do with volunteering in your home town? Many Loudoun career staff do just the same in their off time. Come on guys and gals! The problem isn't paid vs. vollie. The problem is with a certain organization not answering the call for help, and doing it on more than one occasion! You all mention other unstaffed units in other fire houses. Ok so they are called out of service when not staffed. This does not mean there are not crews staffing other units to respond quickly to first due areas. There is really no delay in most first response out of the companies you have mentioned. The county relies heavily on the east end companies to provide services so that they can supplement the west end companies with paid staff. When the day comes that they see fit to place paid staffing 24/7 east bound down the route 7 corridor they will. Until then I think all the fingers should be pointing to stations 12, 15 and 25. These companies continually fail and yet no paid staff. Why is that? Why is there 3 ambulances staffed in ashburn everyday and more often than not none in sterling? And to the tax related questions. Yes fire rescue receives a portion of the taxes in Loudoun county. Does it all go to the volunteer companies? NO! Therefore fund raising is needed to purchse new equipment and provide supplemental training. Volunteer companies get a certain alotment of dollars from the county every year. I can say these dollars hardly ever cover the basic operating expenses of the east end companies. So don't stop donating because in the l;ong run it is actually cheaper than the tax hit you would take for having 24/7 paid staffing in all stations. If it were not for a certain number of naysayers within the system everything would work effectively and efficiently between the career staff and volunteers.
 

You are missing my point, or I did not state it well enough.
1. I neither doubt nor dispute that 24/7 coverage at all Loudoun County firehouses would cost more in terms of tax dollars. As one of the most affluent counties in the eastern US, however, people should reasonably expect to pay for services. What I have a problem with is the lack of "sunshine" on the Fire & Rescue portion of my tax dollars. Why is volunteer leadership so intent on burying the facts? It's a rhetorical question, and you know the answer as well as I do.

2. I have no problem with paid firefighters from other jurisdictions volunteering in another (as long as they actually live in that community and are volunteering out of a sense of community rather than simply squirreling along to catch some runs). However, when it is those same career firefighters acting in their volunteer capacity who deliberately make life miserable for career staff assigned to their volunteer house, then I have a real problem. Professionalism?? I think not. More like B.M.A. ("Brotherhood, my ass.") Then it is a matter of turf protection and turf "marking." Stupid, juvenile behavior by grown, adult, "professional" men and women.

Clear enough?
 

company 12 members are hard working bunch of men and wemon.i think that the comunity should try to get to know them come to bingo, openhouses and stuff like that.i think that you will find that they are a relly great bunch of people.
i think people should stop picking on chief deli and and his wife. they are apart of station 12 they are 2 relly great leaders. i think that fingers should not be pointed.
i think this hole subject should be put behind use. forgive and forget. i think we should learn to forgive. i have to go thanks for lisening.
 

i think that people need to stop picking on chief deli and his wife. i think we need to put this whole situation behind use put past in the past. i think we need to learn to forgive and forget. i think the patient would like to rest in piece. i think all the fire and rescue stations need to work as one big family. work to geather and help each other out and not leave each other stranded.
chief deli and his wife hold the fire station to geather. there what makes station 12 so great. i think people need to get to know there local fire and rescue station by going to openhouses and bingo. put the past in the past let by gones be by gones. fire departments and rescue squdes are soupose to be are heros. i have to go thanks for lisening.
 

Spoken like a true volunteer from Co. 12! Boo Hoo Hoo, leave us alone! We know that it's not our fault, it's everyone else's fault. Don't pick on the Deli's they are good leaders, boo hoo hoo. Here's some advice to follow before your next post. Learn how to spell! Then take a long hard look at what you just asked the taxpayers to do. IGNORE WHAT HAPPENED! That my friend is what Co. 12 is all about. IGNORANCE!
 

i think chief deli dose a wonderful job at being fire chief.
i think we should not judge people from what they have done in the past. i think we should look into the futchure of what we can do to make the fire and rescue more of learning place and a fun place to be.so the community would want to come join the fire and rescue. i think we should keep an open mind.
thanks for lisening.
 

i dont think its fair that people should be picking on the career staff. thous men and wemon are there to there job. they dont sit around waiting for calls to go out. they have other important things that they do. and one is to protect are community during the day. the career staff is there to protect and serve during the day and thats what they are all about.
they are hard working bunch of people. so plese look into your harts and dont feel you have to judge agenst them. they are apart of are community. so plese be kind to them. if they come to take care of you if you are sick say thank you to them for what they do every day. thanks for lisening.
 

i think we should close this website and talk about more important things in life.i think we should put the past behind use and forgive and forget. i think we should think about the futchure of the fire and rescue. come up with some new ideas for projects. i have to go thanks for lisening.
 

I THINK YOU SHOULD PUT THE HOOKED ON PHONICS STUFF AWAY, GROW UP AND SHUT UP.

THANKS FOR LISTENING!
 

im not aloud to coment on what happend. but i think the decdeced patient deserves to rest in peace.
i think thats a little of peace that the patient deseves. we can't bring the patient back. i think we should forgive 12 for what happend. i think in the futchure things will get better. the career gyes are a good bunch of gyes and gals. i think that if we all make a mistake i think that we learn from it. i think thats how we learn to correct things. i dont think pointing fingers help to blame for stuff. i think we should move on and think of more important stuff to work on in the fire and rescue. i think thats relly important. thanks for lisening.
 

i think its ok for people to run from home especially when theres not a call. i think yes i think if you dont have duty crew that you should get to do family stuff with your family because there just as important part of your life and they matter to. if a call go's out then yes i think they need to attend to call because that person allso matters. the career gyes and gals are very hard working people. thanks for lisening.
 

im not going to talk bad about any one from any fire and rescue because i have respect for what they do everyday they go out there and do there job. they go home every night feeling proud for what they do and they should feel good about what they do saveing lives of people. we can't save everyone but we try and i think that counts everyday. saveing one person or 2 people is soupose to feel good. chief deli and his wife are not career haters they never are. they are what keeps that station up and running. thanks for lesening.
 

been away acouple of weeks .come back to read such nonsense.does the person not know how to spell in english.then supports a rescue chief with no peoples skill and an ego that says I never can do wrong because of her a few of us do not volunteer anymore
 

im not pick on anyone in hear. i think everyone in this room has there own comment on what happend.
the chief deli is a good fire chief he knows what he is doing when it comes to a call going out. rescue chief deli she allso knows what she is doing she would never stear anyone wrong. she would never make a bad judgement call.
im going to keep protecting my station. the career staff people are not bad people they do not sit around waiting for calls. they work on maping skiss, they do trannings, they go out and do fire saftey activities at the schools. these members are hard working bunch of people. plese dont look negatvialey on them they dant do anything wrong. and my station dant do anything wrong. so plese find it in your hart to forgive for what ever happend. and put by gones be bygones. thanks for lisen.