STATter 911

Worse: I had a conversation today with a volunteer who told me the county has decided they will no longer do maintenance on vehicles that they do not own. So the volunteer departments are expected to own and maintain the stations, purchase and maintain the vehicles, and buy diesel for all the runs that the county decides to send them on... and only the county is allowed to bill for services?

Does that mean the county gets to bill for volunteer transports, use the money for the county-career departments and then tell the volunteers to go "f"-themselves? Or is the county only screwing the volunteers without trying to benefit from it themselves?
 

Prince George County should be investigated on the Fire side as well as the Police and Sheriff by State of MD and the Fedral Government. I'm starting to think there is a trend of sometype of corruption going on here. Is the Executive a Dumb Ass? It seems with all this press from the past two weeks with Berwyn Heights Mayor loosing two family members (family pets)from a Police matter gone wrong and now the Fire Department causing issues with the Volunteer departments that do save the tax payers millions of dollars a year. Just what is truely going on here and when is something going to be done about Prince George's County and their crooked politians?
 

This is simple...if there is double billing, something should be done. Whoever bills, gets and uses the funds, should perform the service.
 

The PG County Volunteer Haters strike that last blow in the battle to kill off volunteers. There is no way to make money as a Volunteer anymore. Which means your firehouse is Dead.
 

Hmmm... I never understood how people can be billed for a service when they are already paying taxes to provide said services. Seems to me like the taxpayer is getting the short end of the stick-being double billed for services.
 

VFD's are not suppose to make money through standard billing practices, ya'll ever hear of a pancake breakfest or a car wash? How about a good ol' carnival. I lived outside of Harrisburg and loved when the VFD's would have the rides.

For the life of me, I have never heard of getting a bill from someone who is providing a free service to the community.
 

"There is no way to make money as a Volunteer anymore"

Hello....can you say "oxymoron"?

The funny thing is, this fool probably doesn't even realize the problem with this sentence.

Dave, I seriously doubt that "the county has decided they will no longer do maintenance on vehicles that they do not own" or "the county has cancelled the contract to clean our gear to get rid of volunteers" or any of the other dozens of rumors people are flinging here and on the watchdesk faster than a monkey with a hand-full of poo.

Law states that the county has the sole authority to bill...it appears that the county was near striking a deal for the volunteers for them to be able to use a share of the funding for specific purposes that would have to be approved. That is the rub here...volunteer organizations would now be required to ASK FIRST and GET PERMISSION before expending monies that citizens have paid for services rendered.

This is called "accountability" for those of you previously unfamiliar with the term. "Accountability" means no more buying $120,000 Hummers that get 5 miles a gallon and then having $30,000 custom stereo and video systems installed for the personal use of your chief, and then slapping a seal and a lightbar on it in order to put it under county maintenance so that taxpayers are forced to pick up a $40,000 a year tab for the maintenance and fuel.

It also means no more spending moneys for unnecessary "fur-lined sink" and "electric dog polisher" add-ons to million dollar apparatus purchased to look good at parades.

It is all an issue of accountability...the county administration wants costs cut to meet declining revenues, and volunteers still believe they should be exempt from any and all accountability.

Those days are over. The fools whineing here need to get over it and face reality...We have a service to render, and cuts are across the board.

Every taxpayer is feeling the pinch. Suck it in and stop whining.
 

Dave - I think you have forgotten 3other companies that have been billing. There is a total of 11 companies in Prince George's County.

#10 Laurel Volunteer Fire Dept.

#49 Laurel Volunteer Rescue Squad

#35 Greenbelt Volunteer Fire Dept.
 

One thing people have wrong is that the citizens are not being billed for services rendered, that is what their taxes pay for. They are being billed for the cost of the unit and associated equipment. Health insurance and medicare pay all or part of the bill and there are no Co.'s that I am aware of that go to collections for folks who do not pay up.

The part I don't understand is how the county can bill and collect funds for units that they do not own? If the county will not allow the Volunteer Co.s to bill then the county should provide a county owned ambo for every station.
 

Ex Pa. citizen-They don't have fundraisers like that anymore because more money is pocketed than is turned in to the organization for which the event was held. In addition, they can hardly get enough people to get the apparatus out let alone work a charity function.
 

To the comment about not being able to staff fundraisers and get the equipment out of the door. that should be your first clue....time to close the doors and let the county takeover. Also, if too much money is being pocketed,and not making it to the department, what does say about the character and caliber of people that are volunteer firefighters. You said it ....not me.
 

The Volunteers should immediately take all Volunteer owned E.M.S. units out of service and refuse to staff them. Let the County buy and staff all the gut buckets if they want all the billing money!
 

Let the paid maids run all the EMS calls!!! If this is what JJ wants...then he can get on a bus....maybe even Sedgewick!!! Way to go guys!!! You really promote unity! RETARDS!!!
 

What a great way to show you care about the people you serve...we didn't get our way so we just won't play in the sandbox anymore. Enjoy while you still can, because this is the beginning of the end.
 

What a mature response...All the bs about how you care about the community and serve it. Now, because you don't get your way, you don't want to play anymore. Enjoy your little temper tantrums while you can, the beginning of the end is near.
 

It is ironic that many of you state that these units are OWNED by the volunteer corporations. Well, I own my vehicle which means I pay for my own fuel, maintenance, insurance, etc. The same cannot be said for these so called volunteer owned units.

Also, please stop pandering the falsehood that the individual himself is footing the bill for these fees. The fee comes directly from the insurance carriers, who if you investigate, already have established fees for such services not just here, but nationwide. Prince George's County is simply behind the curve in taking advantage of a revenue source that has been in place for quite some time.
 

Were any of the VFDs billing for calls that were staffed by PGFD personnel? Anyone know?
 

To "Oxymoron".

Ok genius, if you were familiar with the system, you would realize that I was saying that there will be no way for Volunteers to make money anymore, as in No way for them to make money for their corporation. You know, to buy those ambulances without county funding and then run calls with them?

People have to realize that the volunteers in this county own over 80% of the apparatus, and it was all bought with their OWN MONEY!

The volunteers receive no help from PG County for the millions of dollars they spend on apparatus, but now that companies can't bill for ambulance services, how are they going to afford to buy anything new?

Bake sales and turkey shoots don't work anymore in this county full of people on government assistance and welfare. The companies in PG county, atleast the large majority of them see little to no help from their communities, period. Don't put false information on here and sugar coat it. The citizens don't care as long as a big red firetruck shows up.

Well. What if it doesn't? What if the volunteers take all of their apparatus and go home with them.


Let's talk about numbers.

Volunteers own 69 engines vs the 18 that the county owns.

Volunteers own 15 trucks vs the 7 that the county owns.

Volunteers own 36 stations vs the 10 that the county owns.

We save the county 83 million dollars in personnel budget a year.

And they want to further cut our ability to function? Are you kidding me? Dave why don't you put these statistics out there? Why don't you question the PG County administration's tendency to strong arm the volunteers, who do this for free and save them Millions of dollars a year?
 

To the last poster...The VFD's bought apparatus that was paid for by donations, grant money, and fund drives. So, technically all that apparatus belongs to the citizens that paid their taxes, sent in donations, and play bingo on Sundays. If you want a story to be told, you should bring all the facts to light, not just the ones that you want to make the volunteer system look good.
 

To the person who asked this question:

"Were any of the VFDs billing for calls that were staffed by PGFD personnel? Anyone know?"

My understanding is that the only ones who could bill were departments that owned the unit and staffed it with volunteers.

Here is the question I have posed to career and volunteer folks in PGFD over the last few years. Even if this is another part of the plan to get rid of the volunteers as some have indicated, what is the county going to replace them with?

Other than building a few firehouses, I have seen no indication Prince George's County has the intention or the resources to hire firefighters in any great numbers and buy their own equipment. Unlike all of the other jurisdictions that immediately surround DC, there has been no expansion of the career forces as volunteer participation has lessened.

There have been and probably still are volunteer departments in the county begging for career personnel and can't get them. In general, PGFD still staffs the firehouses the way they did when I was a volunteer 30-years-ago.

Okay, if you get rid of the volunteers, then what?

To me that's the big question I ask and will continue to ask as a reporter on the sidelines with no horse in the race.

Statter
 

ANONYMOUS AT August 15, 2008 3:32 PM SAID...

People have to realize that the volunteers in this county own over 80% of the apparatus....

Volunteers own 69 engines vs the 18 that the county owns.

Volunteers own 15 trucks vs the 7 that the county owns.

Hmmmm...seems suspicious that you conveniently omitted AMBULANCES, MEDIC UNITS AND ALL SUPPORT UNITS from your "listing"....truth be told, volunteers own far less than HALF the actual fleet in Prince George's, and for the vast minority of the vehicles that the volunteers actually DO own, (as opposed to the majority of units that volunteer corporations have recently purchased..technically, banks actually own over half of all of the volunteer assets in the county), the county pays all fuel, maintenance and insurance for ALL of those.

Another note...if you want to play firehouse lawyer, I suggest you take a peek at the county charter first. It states in very clear terms that the volunteer corporations do not actually "hold" ANY corporate assets.

The charter states that the volunteer corporations exist either under the purview of their incorporated communities, or under the purview of the county.

The moment you cease to operate as a fire department, your corporation ceases to exist. Your corporate charter is voided and revoked, which bars you from liquidating any assets of your corporation. At that moment, like it or not, title on everything you currently think you "own", down to the lug nuts that hold the wheels on the trucks, will automatically revert either to ownership by your incorporated municipality, or ownership by the county.

Sorry to break the bad news to you, Matlock, but that's the way it is.
 

Of all the Volunteer Owned fire trucks how many were bought with State Grant money? How many volunteer Companies are waiting for the next round of State grant money to make their next payment? The County should take all the State grant money like other jurisdictions in the state and quit pandering to the whining volunteers who don't care a lick about serving citizens and only care about serving themselves.
 

Dave, Here's the answer to your question. The County really doesn't care if half of these outfits go out of business. Neighborhood loyalty aside, do 813 and 807 really need to be there together ??. How bout 811 and 814 ??? The count consolidate 2,3,and 4 and no one ever missed any of them. Hillside who ????? Do I need to keep going ??? Ask your good friend Gordon R how many of these places are necessary ( assuming they can provide fire/ems service w/o shooting bottle rockets out of there asss
 

The fact is that just about all of those companies that had the agreement worked out consistently get units out the door staffed with volunteers. The units were paid for by the volunteers through their hard work collecting those funds from their communities. These funds that they had been raising were used to purchase new equipment to better serve the communities.

The communities do not flock to fund raisers like they used to. Nobody will hold a carnival. Too much crime. The volunteers can't pay for todays much more expensive equipment with $10-20K donations. And this crap about $30k video systems is bunk.

Truck 14 is about 18 years old. That is a dinosaur. With its age and use it needs to be replaced soon, as the cost to upkeep it becomes more and more expensive. And it is not even the most busy piece. I understand the volunteers there wore working on plans to replace it, but now that has to be scrapped.

So the citizens suffer, because the county will not give them the money, and with the payments on the rescue squad they can't afford another piece.

Prince Georgres County expects the volunteers to run calls, provide apparatus and stations? While I agree the volunteers hurt themselves more by cutting services to the community, they can't provide services without funds to maintain the fleet.

Some of you are so angry that they don't pay for their insurance and maintenance and fuel (oh and I know at least one company is self insured). So how about they park the units since they can't afford the upkeep, and sit around the stations waiting for the county to provide the quality apparatus they have put up for decades.

I am done rambling, my point is the volunteers at those stations are providing services that ARE NOT PAID FOR BY TAX DOLLARS, IF THEY WERE PAID FOR BY TAX DOLLARS THERE WOULD BE CAREER PEOPLE AND CAREER UNITS HANDLING THE CALLS. They are providing services paid for by the few citizens that give their much appreciated donations, the hard work of those few volunteers, and the insurance monies that the citizens pay for to be used for the emergencies.
 

Check your facts, the State grant money comes from tax dollars. The Volunteers are not raising the money the State and the County are keeping the volunteer system alive in spite of the volunteer's lack of effort or commitment. You can complain all you want but the County pays the bills and State gives the volunteers the money to buy the fire trucks and ambulances that the volunteers use to charge the citizens for EMS service. The volunteers then claim it's theirs. Whoever said it belongs to the citizens is right on

If you care about serving the citizens you could care less if the County is the only entity who can bill, get on the ambulance or fire truck and serve! Citizens who pick up a phone and call 911 don't care who owns it. If you don't like being accountable find another hobby.
 

" The volunteers can't pay for todays much more expensive equipment with $10-20K donations. And this crap about $30k video systems is bunk."

Volunteers can't pay for the equipment they order because volunteers often order equipment that is unnecessary, redundant and overly packed with unneeded bells and whistles.

If you don't believe this is true, then please explain why the average volunteer pumper costs over $100,000 more than the pumpers purchased by the county.

That is the challenge when you have a volunteer department appoint an apparatus committee made up of six or seven people with absolutely no experience in equipment design who are charged to select the specifications for equipment that can cost three quarters of a million dollars to over a million and a half dollars.

No wonder they can't pay for what they order.

THAT is why Prince George's needs accountability.

And expensive and unnecessary audio video systems installed in volunteer chief's cars is neither crap nor bunk...it's real. All you need to do is look.

More often than not, volunteer apparatus design committees over-spec equipment out of some silly sense of competitive pride. Pumpers are ordered with incompatible transmissions, engines and pumps, or over the maximum Gross Vehicle Weight specs with inadequate brakes, Ladder trucks are ordered that exceed the reach necessary for the tallest buildings in their response area, or are too big and long to fit into the stations or traverse the streets they will be responding on - all of which lead to cost overruns and increased maintenance, and adversely effect the overall service life.

That, my friend, is why volunteers can't pay for new apparatus, and that is why better accountability is needed.
 

I think that this is the colmination of many factors in P.G. County, and this is just another example of it. Let us really look at some real facts. The School system is horrible! Crime is out of control! Fire and EMS services are taxed to the limit!

I know that other juristictions around the D.C. area are busy, but are any of them up to 350 calls a day? That is what we face.

If the Fire/EMS department is responding to that many calls, what is the law enforcement call volume?

600(+) Career personnel total. Ok working 4 shifts or day work (go home at 3pm) now minus all those that are working in offices during the week (lets just say 100) Now minus all those that are Battalion Chief and above (lets just say 40-50 officers) So we are down to 450 career personnel actually working the streets divided up by 4 different shifts and the day work personnel not to mention personnel working at the training academy. So lets say 430 people riding the medic units/ambulances and engines and trucks. No wonder there are stations that are asking for career help and cannot get it.

But yet companies like Bladensburg who tried to help the county by saying "we have enough people, go ahead and redistribute your career personnel to other stations that need more help than us" are now being told that they can no longer bill not for the service but to replace the items they use and for upkeep..(oxygen masks, guaze pads...etc) And I know Bladensburg owns their ambulance (not county owned)

So tell me, what is this county going to do?

Law Enforcement is in the same river as the Fire/EMS and yet everyone wants to know why things are so mis-managed from the top down?

The school sytem is horrible. Teaching accoutability starts when a person is young. Teachers cannot teach without fear or try to dicipline kids who act up without fear of being shot in the classroom.

These are all real issues, real problems, and no one wants to fix anything. We need a real overhaul of all county services. Ever try to get a building permit or construction permit for renovations on your home? What a run around!

We need a real system instead of piecemealing the staffing issues.

We need real Law enforcement where the police enforce the laws and not be afraid to do so for fear of being sued by the criminal who just car jacked someone because his civil rights may have been violated.

We need real leadership. We need someone like Adrian Fenty to overhaul the county services. Someone not afraid to make tough decisions and get rid of rif-raf that are lazy and do nothing. We need good leadership from the volunteer side as well. We need good leadership in the schools and with the new police chief (who ever that may be)
 

I think that this is the colmination of many factors in P.G. County, and this is just another example of it. Let us really look at some real facts. The School system is horrible! Crime is out of control! Fire and EMS services are taxed to the limit!

I know that other juristictions around the D.C. area are busy, but are any of them up to 350 calls a day? That is what we face.

If the Fire/EMS department is responding to that many calls, what is the law enforcement call volume?

600(+) Career personnel total. Ok working 4 shifts or day work (go home at 3pm) now minus all those that are working in offices during the week (lets just say 100) Now minus all those that are Battalion Chief and above (lets just say 40-50 officers) So we are down to 450 career personnel actually working the streets divided up by 4 different shifts and the day work personnel not to mention personnel working at the training academy. So lets say 430 people riding the medic units/ambulances and engines and trucks. No wonder there are stations that are asking for career help and cannot get it.

But yet companies like Bladensburg who tried to help the county by saying "we have enough people, go ahead and redistribute your career personnel to other stations that need more help than us" are now being told that they can no longer bill not for the service but to replace the items they use and for upkeep..(oxygen masks, guaze pads...etc) And I know Bladensburg owns their ambulance (not county owned)

So tell me, what is this county going to do?

Law Enforcement is in the same river as the Fire/EMS and yet everyone wants to know why things are so mis-managed from the top down?

The school sytem is horrible. Teaching accoutability starts when a person is young. Teachers cannot teach without fear or try to dicipline kids who act up without fear of being shot in the classroom.

These are all real issues, real problems, and no one wants to fix anything. We need a real overhaul of all county services. Ever try to get a building permit or construction permit for renovations on your home? What a run around!

We need a real system instead of piecemealing the staffing issues.

We need real Law enforcement where the police enforce the laws and not be afraid to do so for fear of being sued by the criminal who just car jacked someone because his civil rights may have been violated.

We need real leadership. We need someone like Adrian Fenty to overhaul the county services. Someone not afraid to make tough decisions and get rid of rif-raf that are lazy and do nothing. We need good leadership from the volunteer side as well. We need good leadership in the schools and with the new police chief (who ever that may be)
 

Unfortunately, there will never be any real accountability on the volunteer side of the department. They want to keep things like they were back in the 50's and 60's when they were kings of their domains and the world revolved around them (so to speak). Let them put their ambulances out of service to try to fight this, maybe then the public will see what they are really about-self serving ego trippers that belong to taxpayer financed social clubs.
 

More often than not, volunteer apparatus design committees over-spec equipment out of some silly sense of competitive pride. Pumpers are ordered with incompatible transmissions, engines and pumps, or over the maximum Gross Vehicle Weight specs with inadequate brakes, Ladder trucks are ordered that exceed the reach necessary for the tallest buildings in their response area, or are too big and long to fit into the stations or traverse the streets they will be responding on - all of which lead to cost overruns and increased maintenance, and adversely effect the overall service life.


Your such a brain child, I guess you have not been to AMD lately and seen those new Squads that "YES" are over weight. But AMD will hide those facts when it comes to placing them in service because no one will question that. As most county apparatus it will be under powered incompatible transmissions for a truck in the application it is being used for. (I worked for a fire truck dealer for many years)Their will be lttle to no compartments and unnecessary wiring nightmares do to how they spec the electrical systems for lights and other applicactions.

On the note of the county paying fuel, maintenance, and insurance costs. Their are a large group of Volunteer companies that pay for these expenses out of there own pocket on a large number of apparatus within the county.
 

As most county apparatus it will be under powered incompatible transmissions for a truck in the application it is being used for.

Underpowered? For what? I've never seen "we were going too slow" written on an investigation report in a fatal accident involving a fire truck.

Tell me...at what point does your quest for "more power" become unsafe? Exactly how fast does a 30 ton truck really need to go? 55? 60? 70? 80? Is getting to the scene 30 seconds earlier really worth the additional risk?

This is EXACTLY the dangerous mindset from most volunteer apparatus design committees that causes costly accidents, and skyrockets purchase costs, as well as maintenance and insurance.

These purchases need better accountability.
 

Not a tic chief:

There is no doubt that there may be some firehouses that would close under your scenario. Closing firehouses is always a tough one for the public to swallow. So, talking about it and doing it are two different issues (read the story I just posted from Atlanta).

Still, even with a reduction in the number of fire stations, can Prince George's County staff the front line equipment (notice I didn't say firehouses) needed to provide adequate fire protection and EMS they way it is done elsewhere around the beltway (not talking tactics here, talking staffing)?

What I currently see are career staffed fire trucks going out with two. To my knowledge that doesn't go on in Montgomery, Arlington, Alexandria and Fairfax.

Again, this is not Dave Statter's opinion, but the questions I have always asked of the career and volunteer leaders of Prince George's County.

The other question I always ask is this. If the answer to the above, is no, Prince George's County can't provide that type of service with a career department, isn't it in the county's best interest to find better ways to encourage volunteerism and have the best relationship possible with the VFDs in the county?

Just some questions from a reporter who has covered this story for a day or two.

Statter
 

Tell me...at what point does your quest for "more power" become unsafe? Exactly how fast does a 30 ton truck really need to go? 55? 60? 70? 80? Is getting to the scene 30 seconds earlier really worth the additional risk?

This is EXACTLY the dangerous mindset from most volunteer apparatus design committees that causes costly accidents, and skyrockets purchase costs, as well as maintenance and insurance.

At know time did I speak of safety or speed. It looks to me like you are just jumpming at anything you can to down the volunteers. If you had any knowledge about mechanical applications, when you place a little motor or poor quality transmission in a large truck. Drive it regularly up and down the road it places hard wear on the unit, which means you will be repairing it more often. (causes repair cost?) Now over weight vehicals and front ends do present a possible safety issue, or death from mechanical failure. (maybe your AMD should be checked out for issues that do not meet standards)Oh and if you had such a good knowledge of PG, you would have read the standards for apparatus (guidelines) - (accountablity)
Grow up and go back to 1619, your making a fool of yourself and everyone else.
 

"At know time did I speak of safety or speed."


At "know" time did you learn to use spellcheck either. Here's a quick rule for you: If you really expect to pass yourself off as a mechanical engineer, I would suggest you at least master the simple rules of sentence structure first. When you make mistakes on simple words like that, "your" making a fool of yourself and everyone else. (Frankly, I got a nice chuckle at the "and everyone else" part too)

By the way...going back to your earlier comments, would you mind providing us with a list of all of these volunteer owned pieces in prince george's county you mentioned where the volunteer corporations currently pay for all of their own maintenance, insurance and fuel?

There may be one or two, but other than that, out of the volunteer "fleet" of 84 pieces mentioned above, I have serious doubts that there are actually more than one or two...far from a "majority"...I think you are making that up.
 

Seriously correcting people's grammar and sentence structure makes you look childish and brings nothing constructive to this conversation.

What it shows is you don't have valid points and rely on attacking peoples' typing ability instead of producing factual information.
 

Seriously, statements like...

"Grow up and go back to 1619, your making a fool of yourself and everyone else."

...seem to be the ones that really sound childish, and give clues that the author is unprepared and sorely lacking in valid points or factual information to base their debate on.

Speaking of factual information necessary to base the debate on, have you had a chance to prepare that list of the many pieces of apparatus that volunteers fully fund insurance, maintenance AND fuel on yet?

Seriously, I can't wait to see it!
 

Dave,

In response to your question of what type of service the career side could provide, look at the numbers.

They have enough stations to place one per 48 square miles, they have enough engines, trucks and squads to run 3 full assignments at the same time IF they had the staffing for them. Speaking of staffing...With roughly 450OPERATIONAL on the career side there is enough staffing for 3 shifts, and that is not accounting for staffing of ambulances or medic units. So really your looking at 2 shifts, 24 on, 24 off. Oh, and don't plan on taking leave.

In response to the posts about buying upgraded apparatus, the life of an average county engine is probably 1/2 that of a vol engine due to the fact that they buy cheap. Now what is more cost effective? Buying two to last as long as one good one? Additionally, with the county about to announce furloughs for county employees, I don't see them packing the academy with too many new hires.

Why isn't all over the news Dave? You have one of the largest Fire/EMS departments in the area on the verge of implosion due to mismanagement. The money the individual departments take in for billing goes toward purchasing new apparatus. There is no double billing. The only way a vol company can bill is if they own the ambulance AND it is staffed by all volunteers. How, in a county that is suddenly broke the day after getting the bond rating they wanted, is the fire department turning down 83 million in FREE service?
 

In response to the posts about buying upgraded apparatus, the life of an average county engine is probably 1/2 that of a vol engine due to the fact that they buy cheap.

I'm sorry, but that statement is nothing but the expression of pure speculative opinion that is sorely lacking in any form of fact.

County-owned engines log just as many service miles as volunteer-owned. The difference is, the county appears to have enough sense to deadline and sell apparatus while there is still service life (and resale value) left in them, and at a point in their service life prior to the point when their maintenance costs start to surpass their carrying costs.

That is good planning, and it is also the result of having accountability built into the system.

It is exactly this thinking that resulted in the recent purchase of the new fleet of seventy ambulances to replace the entire ambulance and medic unit fleet. The entire ambulance fleet, the vehicles that take the most wear and tear - far more than engines and trucks do - was replaced with new vehicles. Bulk purchase provided significant cost savings per unit.

Are the vehicles no-frills? Yes...but does an ambulance with chrome wheels, fifty extra running lights and a blaupunkt stereo put on better bandaids? No.

On top of significant cost savings for purchase, these vehicles are also slated to be replaced in five years, when vehicle drive-train warranties expire and while there is still significant resale value for the vehicle.....and, mind you, they are to be replaced at a point before repair costs begin their sharp increase.

THAT, my friend, is the result of having a comprehensive vehicle plan...and that is what volunteer "apparatus design committees" lack; Bulk purchasing power, the resulting parts savings by compatibility with multiple shared units, an objective to expend funds in a prudent and cost-effective manner, and a plan for eventual replacement prior to significant increase in repair costs.

Like it or not, that is why volunteers need more and better accountability before making significant purchases of this nature.
 

After reading all of the comments (and laughing) I thought I'd clarify the situation in Prince George's County for some people. First off - DOUBLE BILLING DOES NOT HAPPEN!! The volunteers only bill for calls run on their company owned ambulances staffed solely with volunteers at the time of the call. Second - the bill goes to the patient's insurance company. I don't know of ANY volunteer organization that sends a patient to collections over an ambulance transport! That claim is just ludacris!

Not only did the county significantly cut the budget for volunteer companies for this fiscal year - they're now cutting the legs out from underneath the volunteer companies by taking away their main source of funds. And the fact of the matter is that PGFD cannot SAFELY staff all front line apparatus 24/7. And they also aren't hiring any new personnel to try and fill the voids they are creating by trying to push out the volunteers. The county has no money - period. And whoever the genius was who thought that ambulance billing would solve the county's money problems is smoking much more than just what was delivered to the mayor of Berwyn Heights' home!

This definitely needs to be in the headlines of all the major news channels. I can't believe it hasn't been already. We'll see just how much good 'ol Jack Johnson & "The Wick" (PGFD's Chief...) enjoy their decision when the citizens of PG County are knocking down their doors when they need 911 services.
 

But they don't want to be accountable-that's the whole problem. They think they are above any kind of rules and regulations unless they are handed down from the Lord of the Fiefdom( the volunteer chief). This may be a good time to consider whether or not a combination system is viable in today's world.
 

Get real.

Out of the almost sixty (about forty-five ambulances and dozen medic) ALS/BLS units currently in service in the county, you can count on one hand the number that truly rely on any significant volunteer staffing to get out, and you will have fingers left...Truth be told, 100%volunteer involvement constitutes considerably less than 10% of all the medical responses in the county.

The vast majority of BLS/ALS units in the county are already staffed by career forces 24/7.

All this talk of volunteers taking their toys and going home is nothing more than a bunch of hot air.

If those companies decide to pull the preverbial plug, I think you will find that there will be little or no demonstrable effect.

Puff up your chest and blow as hard as you like, boys...you may think you are the big bad wolf, but this house won't fall down just because you say so.
 

Four words.....GET RID OF TRIM !!!!!
 

Based on the discussions in this forum, it is quite obvious to an outsider what force is driving this debate.....EGO'S.

The volunteer organizations were given a negotiated settlement wherein they would receive all money that they were due. However, to receive the money they would have to submit a claim for service and would then receive the associated fees. It wasn't until the volunteers refused to comply with this arrangement that the Exec stepped in an ordered those in violation to cease all billing activities. The immense ego's of these volunteer chiefs and corporate orders simply couldn't stand being held accountable to an outside entity, Chief Sedgwick.

In the end, for all of you crying that your money was taken away, that simply isn't the case. To all you self-centered and egotistical chiefs and corporation officers, keep it up, when your demise is complete, you will see that as is usually the case; your wounds were self-inflicted.
 

I have read over and over about lack of leadership at the county level, whether it be from the Fire Chief, or the County Executive. I would have to ask, where is the leadership from the volunteer corporations?

What kind of leadership would walk away from guaranteed money, simply because you had to be held accountable to receive it? I think that these so-called leaders have cut their noses off to spite their faces. Also, if their billing practices were on the up and up.....then why all the protesting. If you have nothing to hide, then what would be so hard about being held accountable.

At the end of the day, you have to measure your worth. Would you rather be a volunteer movement martyr on the various blogs, or submit you claims and receive ambulance billing money as a solvent corportation. You all chose POORLY enjoy your martyrdom!
 

(It is exactly this thinking that resulted in the recent purchase of the new fleet of seventy ambulances to replace the entire ambulance and medic unit fleet. The entire ambulance fleet, the vehicles that take the most wear and tear - far more than engines and trucks do - was replaced with new vehicles. Bulk purchase provided significant cost savings per unit.)

It seems you left out the part about the units where going to be leased and some how they got purchased without anyone knowing, costing millions of dollars over the original price of the units.

How many of these units are left in service? How many have been wrecked or damaged to where the re-sale is lost?
The company that made the units is no longer in business (American Lafrance) this limits parts to repair or fix the units.

When are these units being replaced? If you have not looked around lately, where do you think the money to replace them is coming from? Ambo billing – Money goes to County General Fund, oh the County schools, PD, Public works, Jack Johnson’s pocket (National Harbor), Sherriff’s, Corrections, Welfare and do I need to go any further?
 

"It seems you left out the part about the units where going to be leased and some how they got purchased without anyone knowing, costing millions of dollars over the original price of the units.

What the heck are you taking about??? You sound like a total idiot!

1) American La France did not go out of business....I suggest you visit their website, where you will find the following press release dated July 25, 2008:

American LaFrance Exits Bankruptcy
New Business Initiatives Planned

New York, July 24, 2008 – Patriarch Partners is pleased to announce that, effective July 24, 2008, American LaFrance, LLC, the 175 year old manufacturer of fire, rescue and vocational vehicles, emerged successfully from its Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

2) The 70 Ambulances were purchased, as planned from the beginning. There are several press releases found on prince george's county's website that chronicle the process...All refer to PURCHASED, and non refer to lease.

I suggest that in the future you check the source of your information before you embarrass yourself. Everything you read on the watchdesk is not gospel.
 

Hey Dave,

What's the difference between a trash truck and the majority of fire trucks in Pee Gee County?

Trash trucks have at least three people on them............
 

Do you think if the entire county was staffed with career folks that the generous pay scales and retirement packages would continue? It would be interesting to see the public reaction to the compensation package the career folks get i.e. 20 year retirement w/high percentage based on salary and other criteria.
 

If you think that anyone who retired off the job on normal service retirement is getting rich off of it, you really are ignorant and misinformed.
 

Want to know what a volunteer who posts on the watchdesk has in common with a GRAPE?

The harder you squeeze either one, the more whine you're bound to get.
 

I've heard a lot of people talk about accountability in this discussion. How the volunteers could have their money they worked to get, so long as they have the county's go ahead on how it's spent. So here's my metaphor if you will:

You're young, and you need some cash for whatever, let’s say a concert ticket. So you ask your parents for some funds. They say “Now Junior, if you want something, you need to get out there and earn some money for yourself. We have our own money problems to worry about.” So you go and get a job, let’s say a paper route. You get up at the crack of dawn, hop on the bike you bought a few years ago, and you go busting your butt up and down the neighborhood, delivering papers. You work hard, and you make it to payday. And so you run home, get cleaned up, and get ready to head to that concert. But your folks stop you at the door. “Where’s your pay?” they ask. And you show them your money. And they say, “Well what are you going to do with it?” And you say, “I’m going to a concert.” And they say, “Oh that’s not a good use of your money, we’re going to hold onto it until we approve of what you want to spend it on.” Meanwhile your parents are up to their ears in credit card debit, and can barely make the payments on their mortgage, and they’re telling you how to spend your money.

So does that seem fair? It’s your sweat, your effort, your time, your bike. But someone who says they know better than you is going to tell you how to spend your money.

And some of the folks on here are going to respond, “Well the county does know better. They know what’s best for the citizens and the fire departments. They know how you should spend the money.” They obviously don’t. If they did, they wouldn’t be in debt. They wouldn’t be struggling to cover the staffing they say they can cover. They wouldn’t be putting four firefighters in a house where two need to go on the ambulance, leaving two to head out and staff a fire engine going to a house fire. They wouldn’t order 70 ambulances at a time, ambulances that are so beaten after three years that patients in the back scream after going over every little bump at 15 mph because the shocks are shot.

Can the volunteers handle their own money? I think they can.

College Park VFD knows how to spend their money. They needed a new engine. Laurel VFD was selling their engine. So as opposed to going half a mil in the hole for a new piece, in a community where most of the people they serve are college students without a dime to donate, CP bought Laurel’s for less than one tenth of that. So Laurel VFD gets a good deal, they resold it while it still had many great years on it, very responsible. Then College Park put in some serious time overhauling and painting it, and it runs and looks fantastic. Two companies benefit, all without county input. That’s two examples of good spending by a volunteer corporation.

If you want to manage money, yours or anyone else’s, you have to show that you are capable. PGFD hasn’t done that. It’s greed, pure and simple. PGFD needs the money, and they’re going to try and take it.
 

Nice metaphor...except you forgot the part about the fact that you constantly flip out dad's credit card to pay for the gas, insurance and maintenance on the "bike" you "hop on", which happens to be a tricked-out Harley Sportster...you know..the one that you didn't have the money for, but took a high-interest loan to buy anyway, you know....because you "need" it to drive around on your paper route...you know...the same Harley that you will fully expect mom and dad to pay off if you miss a payment.

You also forgot to mention the fact that you are 26 years old, and you still live under mom and dad's roof, and the only job you have is your paper route.

You burn their electricity, and use their propane for your hot showers. Mom and Dad clothe you, and you don't pay them a cent.

By the way, the concert you want to go to? The tickets cost $650...and mom and dad havn't had a night out since they started paying for your education. You don't contribute a dime for that either.

Now, with that in mind, is it too much for mom and dad to want approval before you spend "your" money???
 

Yes, that's 2 examples of fiscal responsobility on behalf of 2 of the 48 volunteer fire stations and those are the only 2 I grant you.If you think that the rest of the VFD's are as fiscally responsible as those 2 companies, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
 

Who said anything about getting "rich"? You still didn't answer the question, if the county hired enough career folks to cover all the needed field units with adequate staffing - would they still be able to keep up the level of compensation & retirement packages you currently have?
 

Can the volunteers handle their own money? I think they can.

College Park VFD knows how to spend their money. They needed a new engine. Laurel VFD was selling their engine. So as opposed to going half a mil in the hole for a new piece, in a community where most of the people they serve are college students without a dime to donate, CP bought Laurel’s for less than one tenth of that. So Laurel VFD gets a good deal, they resold it while it still had many great years on it, very responsible. Then College Park put in some serious time overhauling and painting it, and it runs and looks fantastic.


Looks fantastic?...maybe...but it still RUNS like a fifteen year old dog, and it still carries the exact same corresponding high maintenance costs it had when it was a fifteen year old dog in Laurel.

Laurel and College Park got a "good deal" alright, but the county, and county taxpayers got screwed in the process.

Seems you also forgot about all the OTHER "volunteer-purchased" pieces where the County has been forced to take over the payments in recent years because volunteers defaulted on their notes...can you say Riverdale? Can you say Riverdale Heights? Can you say Boulevard Heights?

Another of these recent "Good Deals" was one crafted by Glenn Dale. In 2006, the county purged its entire old ambulance fleet as a cost-saving measure to decrease high maintenance costs. 18 buys one of the old ambulances dirt cheap at auction, slaps on a new coat of paint, and puts it back in service and under county maintenance....brilliant, 18 gets a dirt cheap ambulance, and once again, taxpayers get the shaft.

Funny...it sounds lmore and more like better accountability is the smart way to go to me!
 

So you go and get a job, let’s say a paper route. You get up at the crack of dawn, hop on the bike you bought a few years ago, and you go busting your butt up and down the neighborhood, delivering papers. You work hard, and you make it to payday. And so you run home, get cleaned up, and get ready to head to that concert. But your folks stop you at the door. “Where’s your pay?” they ask. And you show them your money. And they say, “Well what are you going to do with it?” And you say, “I’m going to a concert.” And they say, “Oh that’s not a good use of your money, we’re going to hold onto it until we approve of what you want to spend it on.”

That was the FIRST month that you had the paper route...Since then, there have been multiple days when you just didn't show up, overslept, were too hung over to deliver papers, or just didn't feel like doing it that morning.

On those days, mom and dad have to pay other kids from the neighborhood to do your job for you. You began to like that...and started only delivering papers when you WANTED to deliver papers.....and the more mom and dad paid the neighbor kids, the less interested you became in maintaining your paper route.

THis pattern continues until you have proven yourself to be so unreliable that mom and dad pretty much have taken over hiring other kids to make sure the papers get delivered for you.

Now it has come to the point that you are only interested in delivering the papers on your route to the houses that tip.

Now tell me...Is it still "your" money?
 

Ok, so let's have the county purchase all the apparatus and the individual company's will pay for fuel, maint., and insurance with ambo billing. I am sure you won't find too many dept's out there that would complain about that. As far as the county being a financially responsible "parent" lol what a fricken joke. Dad, JJ and Uncle Sedge are smoking juniors hard earned money. What sense does it make to take the ambo billing from the individual dept's? The money coming in from the individual dept's is spent on FIRE DEPT needs. It is X amount of dollars the Co fire chief does not need to beg JJ for in his budget. ALL ambo billing from the Co will go to the general fund which means it sure will help out the police get more officers on the street working overtime. Where you had 11 dept's with a constant source of income directly infusing funds into the fire service, you now have the Career side that much more financially strapped because they are picking up the bill, literally, for each of those dept's future purchases IF they can get the money out of the general fund. This county has gotten what they deserve for voting JJ in...twice lol. But hey we do have a good relationship with some village in Africa.
 

Another of these recent "Good Deals" was one crafted by Glenn Dale. In 2006, the county purged its entire old ambulance fleet as a cost-saving measure to decrease high maintenance costs. 18 buys one of the old ambulances dirt cheap at auction, slaps on a new coat of paint, and puts it back in service and under county maintenance....brilliant, 18 gets a dirt cheap ambulance, and once again, taxpayers get the shaft.

Stop posting, you obviously don't know what your talking about. The ambulance at Glenn Dale is not an old county ambulance. It was purchased from a Charles County department with 15,000 or so miles on it, at a very good price, and not at auction, saving the county a large amount of money. Speaking of Glenn Dale and saving the county money, 168hrs. in a week..vol's staff 128. Not clear enough? Ok, 8760hrs. in a year, Volunteers staff 6760hrs. How much does that save the county? Still not clear enough? How about the volunteer staffing at Glenn Dale, ONE firehouse in the county, saves the county $1,056,380! No, wait...sorry didn't include holiday overtime..$1,111,604 a year. That makes up for a lot of oil and fuel doesn't it? If your best argument for the county taking over billing is they pay for fuel and maint. you must be a Sledge cronie.
 

Mr. Metaphor here. Some of you made some interesting points. Not many valid points, but interesting.

Nice metaphor...except you forgot the part about the fact that you constantly flip out dad's credit card to pay for the gas, insurance and maintenance on the "bike" you "hop on", which happens to be a tricked-out Harley Sportster...you know..the one that you didn't have the money for, but took a high-interest loan to buy anyway, you know....because you "need" it to drive around on your paper route...you know...the same Harley that you will fully expect mom and dad to pay off if you miss a payment.

Mom and Dad aren’t paying much, considering they have my fine brothers only get the pieces out my door 22% of the time, leaving 78% for me to do. My “bike” was paid off the minute it rolled in the door, no Sportster, but a solid used piece that’s got a lot of great miles on it still.

You also forgot to mention the fact that you are 26 years old, and you still live under mom and dad's roof, and the only job you have is your paper route.

I have my own full time job on top of volunteering, and keep my own place. NEXT!

You burn their electricity, and use their propane for your hot showers. Mom and Dad clothe you, and you don't pay them a cent.

Mom and Dad don’t clothe me. They gave me a cheap shirt and pants once, cost them maybe 20 bucks. The gear they provide? I admit it’s top of the line, but it’s the only time I’ve been given anything from them. Plus I got half as much of the gear as my brothers (one set vs. the paid guys’ two). So my brother gets a salary, health benefits, two sets of gear and doesn’t ever have to think about the quality of the piece he’s on, because I put in the time make sure I bought a good one, not too snazzy, but enough to get the job done.

By the way, the concert you want to go to? The tickets cost $650...and mom and dad havn't had a night out since they started paying for your education. You don't contribute a dime for that either.

Mom and Dad get plenty nights out. They go out in chief's cars, loaded down with gear, gas guzzling beasts, that they drive around 24/7, independent of when they are working. They say they’ve earned it. Yeah, they earned the right to spend taxpayer money like drunken sailors. And my education, that the taxpayers are paying for, is cheaper than the education my brothers get, since they get PAID to sit in class. Imagine that.

Looks fantastic?...maybe...but it still RUNS like a fifteen year old dog, and it still carries the exact same corresponding high maintenance costs it had when it was a fifteen year old dog in Laurel.

Laurel and College Park got a "good deal" alright, but the county, and county taxpayers got screwed in the process.

Seems you also forgot about all the OTHER "volunteer-purchased" pieces where the County has been forced to take over the payments in recent years because volunteers defaulted on their notes...can you say Riverdale? Can you say Riverdale Heights? Can you say Boulevard Heights?

So you’re upset when they make a good purchase, but ask the county to toss in a little for the maintenance? But you’re also upset that they have to actually contribute to the cost of a piece of apparatus that their career guys ride? How else are the career guys going to get to the call? Walk with buckets of water?

Another of these recent "Good Deals" was one crafted by Glenn Dale. In 2006, the county purged its entire old ambulance fleet as a cost-saving measure to decrease high maintenance costs. 18 buys one of the old ambulances dirt cheap at auction, slaps on a new coat of paint, and puts it back in service and under county maintenance....brilliant, 18 gets a dirt cheap ambulance, and once again, taxpayers get the shaft.

You complain about the high cost of maintenance, how the taxpayer takes it in the backside. Who paid for the 70 new ambulances? Who’s paying for the costly maintenance now, since they are being run into the ground? Are you sure the 70 new ambulances weren’t just because the paid folks got tired of riding around in crappy pieces?

That was the FIRST month that you had the paper route...Since then, there have been multiple days when you just didn't show up, overslept, were too hung over to deliver papers, or just didn't feel like doing it that morning.

On those days, mom and dad have to pay other kids from the neighborhood to do your job for you. You began to like that...and started only delivering papers when you WANTED to deliver papers.....and the more mom and dad paid the neighbor kids, the less interested you became in maintaining your paper route.

THis pattern continues until you have proven yourself to be so unreliable that mom and dad pretty much have taken over hiring other kids to make sure the papers get delivered for you.

Let me summarize your point. Unlike the good old days, where people could be volunteers and help out whenever, now the volunteers have to ask for help in staffing. That is a great point. We have to ask for help getting the pieces out the door. That’s because this 2008, and people need to earn money of their own. We can’t live off volunteering. However, Mom and Dad can’t pay for all the time. At my house, they rely on us for 78% of the staffing. They do 22% of the work. So they can have the 22% of the money they work for. We’ll take our 78%. And Mom and Dad still make out on the deal, because they don’t have to pay me to do the 78%, I’ll do that for free.

Now it has come to the point that you are only interested in delivering the papers on your route to the houses that tip.

This is just a flat out lie. No one is stopping service to the calls that won’t pay, or that don’t have insurance. Everyone is still getting the same level of service. And that still doesn't prove why the county should get all the money.

Like I said, the county has no leg to stand on when they say we should ask for the funds. No one has provided an example of excellent management on the part of the county. There is no reason to trust them. Everyone keeps talking about the 70 ambulances, like that was the best decision anyone ever made. It was a terrible decision. The better idea would have been to take them in phases. Sure buy in bulk, but take 20 a year, so there is a constant supply of new ones. Not 70 ambulances that all need replacing at the same time. You still have interchangeable parts and those benefits.

Someone give me an example of good management by the county, something that shows they can manage money, and I’ll take note. Otherwise all you’ve got is name calling.
 

Trim is an entity within the County Charter. Several years back County Executive offered a Proposal to do away with TRIM The Taxpayers VOTED the Proposal DOWN on Ballot Referendum. It seems quite inappropriate to chastise and be harshly critical of the County Executive who is Elected by the Taxpayers. The County Fire Chief is Public Servant charged with the Responsibility to Deliver a Professional Firre & EMS Service.
He must rethink and even redeploy his priorities to get his job done as mandated. The words of negative opinionated individuals is somewhat
a shame to the image of Public Safety. Yes these are very tight times Financially. County operates with a Budget. Please keep in mind "SPENDING AFFORDABILITY" is the bottom line. The constant rant and criticism by each faction (Career & Volunteer) does absolutely nothing to work through
the Financial crisis. The Taxpayers Deserve and expect everyone to Demonstrate and Exercise a high standard of professionalism. (Professionalism Defined as Career AND Volunteer).
The Facts and statistics are a good start for everyone to sit down together and begin some concrete decisions. The County Volunteer Leadership and the County
Career leadership need to stop words of how good each entity is. The statement which obviously comes from a Career person that Volunteers are done through. Stop and listen to yourself. The County cannot afford a Total,Career Fighting and EMS Force. Check your words with the facts of Financial availability. Bottom Line here is,Reasonable people together can workthrough this and determine a good Resolve for the TAXPAYERS.
"Trust and Respect"
 

The ambulance at Glenn Dale is not an old county ambulance. It was purchased from a Charles County department with 15,000 or so miles on it, at a very good price

One thing I can say is when you tell a lie, you go for the gold! How on earth would a 1998 ambulance only have 15,000 miles on it eight years later?

Chuck Co. may be slow, but logging an average of less than 2,000 miles a year on a front line ambu is clearly a fabrication.

Nice try, though.
 

Fact:
1. Glenn Dales ambo came from Charles County, 2. It had low miles,(my best guess was 15,000 I can't remember exactly what it was) 3. It was at a good price, 4. It saved the county from buying an ambulance, 5. It has run for 2yrs. and helped to pay for a new engine and squad that the county did not have to foot the bill for.

Fiction:
1. It was an old PGFD ambo, 2. It was bought at auction, 3. The tax payers got the shaft.

Who's facts are more scewed? Again, the point was the county is as screwed up as a football bat and people like you are probably the ones doing it. Stop being part of the problem. Think about this, Glenn Dale FD has been in business for rougly 80yrs. and is doing fine. They have managed money, personnel and every aspect of business for roughly 80yrs. PGFD has been in business for 35yrs? and is in the toilet. Personnel mismanagement, money mismanagement, and business mismanagement. Who is better to decide financial matters, personnel matters and emergency service matters for the citizens of PG?
 

Thanks for blowing sunshine up our shorts!

Now, its time for a reality check:

For all your bitching, it appears that the County is actually doing something to address the current economic downturn.

For all your bluster, I have yet to hear one single idea of anything volunteer fire departments could do to economize.

Your only idea you have been able to express seems to be that you need to be left alone.

Face the facts:

In the first fifty-five years of the Prince George's County Fire and Rescue Association, just two volunteer departments disbanded: 15 and 16.

2) In the twenty-some years since 1985, a total of five (10%) of the remaining departments have failed, or currently exist only on paper...no active volunteer participation to speak of.

3) Approximately 30% of the remaining volunteer corporations are currently teetering on the brink of financial failure.

I might be wrong, but maybe it would be better for you to turn your "keen" intellect to solving the problems you face in your own house before you start making up stories about mismanagement in county government.

But that would require work, instead of bitching.
 

First, PG County has been in the fire service business since July of 1966. If you need to know why the Volunteer Departments should be held fiscally accountable, just look back to the days of the "Casino Nights". There was probably more cash going out the back doors than was being turned in. Need proof of that-what happened to Hillside-bailed out twice by the County and the 3rd time the County cut them loose-where did all the money go to make the payments on their apparatus-that's right, into someones pockets other than the banks that financed the apparatus.
 

Mr. Metaphor here again. Let’s see what we’ve got now.

Thanks for blowing sunshine up our shorts!

Now, its time for a reality check:

For all your bitching, it appears that the County is actually doing something to address the current economic downturn.

And that would be…? Thank you for your very specific example. You didn’t even mention a topic, or a news article. Just that the county is doing “something to address”. Not solve, or fix, but address. Very nice.

For all your bluster, I have yet to hear one single idea of anything volunteer fire departments could do to economize.

Ask and ye shall receive. There’s plenty we do. Our house tries to cook in station as much as possible, so we’re not burning fuel just to drive out to grab grub. That saves some fuel. Or perhaps how we watch our electricity, turning out lights in empty rooms. We are quite good about that. Or training as close to home as possible, by hosting courses in house. My, oh my, my station does that too. Or how about encouraging firefighters to take appropriate measures and maintain their gear properly, thereby decreasing the amount that is paid to Maryland Fire. We do all that already. So there are a few small ideas. Now let’s hear some of yours about what the county is doing.

Your only idea you have been able t