STATter 911

Mohler needs to only look within his Local 2068 leadership. They are the reason that incompent FFs are getting promoted and allowed to continue to act as FFs. The fire dept leadership is also to blame for not standing up to the union. This isn't the first time and sadly won't be the last that dept members are responsible for civilian deaths. What will make them wake up? A FF fatality. We sure have been close lately. There is a saying that has been said a lot lately and we wonder how true it is. "Diversity of Safety"
 

It sounds to me like the officer on R419 should probabley be looking for some other line of work. "Too hazardous"? I havent heard the building collapsed or anything close to that. Fairfax has mass produced fire officers in the last couple of years. This is a manifest of that. Also in the name of diversity, they have skipped over good people to promote people lower on the promotional lists. You can thank the previous fire chief for that. His obsession was not having a good fire department , but rather have a racially and sexually balanced fire department.It is at the expense of the taxpayer. Now his policies are coming home to roost. If you will notice, he doesn't live in Fairfax County, so where was his interest? A feather in his cap? This is why a residency requirement should be in place for the Fire Chief. Not a home elsewhere and an apartment to carry an address in Fairfax County.
 

Agreed with both comments. I wonder if the county attorney is going to settle out of court this would surely reach in the millions. I am sure the citizens in Fairfax are proud of the last three fire Lieut promotions. The department promoted the first three who are ranked #68, #103 and #130 from the LT promo list. I think the correct quote you're looking for is "Diversity Over Safety" and yes the Union is to blame!
 

Dave thanks for your continuing follow up on this incident. My hats off to the chief for owning up to the fact there were problems with this incident and having a timely report produced and then allowing it to be publicly viewed.

From a fire report standpoint, I have a big problem that the exact time that the victim was found was not noted in the report. I don't understand why because in the end any parties seeking damages will certainly have access to it. Seems like a mini cover up since the released tapes also seem to end sometime before the women was found. Plus the report seems to have conflicting info about the recovery time stating sometime longer than 40 minutes and also 50 minutes (30 plus 20).

My kudos however for the quantity and specificity of the "findings" and detailing other commonly seen fireground problems.

However, not sure I agree with the statement that only one crew is needed per floor to search. Considering that crew members should be searching staying together I think two crews/floor would be more appropriate. Look how many rooms are on the second floor. And considering you had a reported victim, I think two crews searching the third floor is appropriate. Yes you have to coordinate and maybe duck into rooms to pass, but it can easily be done.

What also is lacking is any detailed explanation about why the women was missed when claims were made the bathroom was searched. I respect R419 for admitting they missed the bathroom door initially. That can easily happen. However, why was she subsequently missed? There really is only two explanations considering where the woman was found. One is someone is lying about searching, or two the woman was walked or crawled over. Hey that can also happen, but if it did it should have been admitted and in the report. If not the claim that the bathroom was searched is certainly suspect. Also, how come no one admitted opening the bathroom door? Clearly the door would have been shut by the victim and someone should be owning up to opening it initially. Also the smoke staining in the bathroom should have been examined and noted and reported to try and estimate when the door was opened.

Another complaint missing from the findings is that their seems to be no faulting of the IC. IMHO he shares some of the blame for not reconciling the outside report that he was receiving that a victim was inside with the number of people already transported. Listening to the tape, I had to image he assumed the victim was out after searches came back negative rather than repeatedly clarifying who was searching and where and sending more crews in. He needed to positively locate the victim since dispatch had positive communication with her.

Dispatch also shares some blame for not following up with the IC about the status of the victim. They could have coordinated with the ambulances and determined the person was not en route to the hospital and informed the IC that the person was still unaccounted for. And what about asking the victim where exactly the bathroom is located on the third floor while they were talking to here? IE go right or left, etc from the stairs.

Also as far as the report maps go, I think they should have had parked cars drawn in as well as used hoses and ladders shown.

I probably have other issues with the report but these are the items that jump out at me after a quick reading.

Unfortunately, whatever is in the report this incident will always be a tragedy, but this report as well as the complete fireground audio (Dave I previously asked you about longer fireground audio) is what should be taken back to fire departments for training.
 

Steven,

Thanks for your insight. I was not successful in getting a more complete version of the recordings.

The report says more than 40 minutes before Ms. Chiles was found. The original timeline that we provided a week after the fire had it logged into the computer the following way-

1:35:44 ENGINE 422 REPORTS FIRE KNOCKED DOWN. HAVE NOT LOCATED 3RD VICTIM. STARTING SECONDARY SEARCH.

The 40 minute mark would be about 5 minutes after that report. So somewhere between the forty minute mark and this entry is when they found her:

1:58:16 COMMAND REQUESTS THE LAB, CRIME SCENE AND HOMICIDE.

I was unable to get anything more specific than that.

I will say, having been in another home a few doors away with the same layout, these are tiny places.

I did ask Dave Rohr, if I missed something, or am I correct that the report really doesn't say why no one could find this large woman in a relatively small area. He agreed the answer isn't in the report and says we may never know.

In his interview on Thursday, Chief Rohr talked quite a bit about command issues at this fire.

Statter
 

Having retired as the station captain at the Lorton Fire Station in 2005 this tragedy hits very close to home. I find it hard to believe, after listening to the tapes and seeing photos of the building, which I am very familiar with, that this woman could not have been rescued. The structure was perhaps a two to three minute travel time from the firehouse. I do agree with some previous comments that fire training has, in my opinion, slipped in recent years. So much emphasis is now placed on safety that basic fire extinguishment and search are suffering badly. More and more fires deteriorate into exterior operations now than ever before. If crews face even moderate heat or smoke conditions they are routinely pulled out of the structures. Just look at the fire loss compared to value on recent fires to confirm this. Fairfax County, while a busy department, does not see the volume and severity of fire that many other metropolitan areas do. Hence, it takes many years to gain solid practical experience in the field. College courses, degrees and book smart officers do not necessarily make good fireground officers unless they have gained actual experience. College courses, by the way, are required to move into the officer ranks and experience is not a subsitute unfortunately. It is not uncommon in Fairfax for firefighters to make the officer level in 3-5 years, not enough time in my opinion, based on the number of working fires an employee might see, to make an experienced officer. These young officers, while trying their best to do the right thing, simply have not seen enough fire to get the needed experience to make good fireground decisions. It's not their fault, but the fault of administration. I know both of the first arriving officers who were at this fire, both were good firefighters. But good firefighters do not instantly turn into good officers, and both were recently promoted. And in response to a comment on a previous post, yes, good officer candidates are routinely passed over in the interest of promoting a racially and sexually diverse "balance" in the ranks. I know, it cost me two promotions personally.

I have a number of questions, some of which have been vaguely answered during the investigations;
1. Why couldn't Engine 419's crew handle a couple of rooms of fire on a first floor fire, that's bread and butter even if some fire was rolling over the ceiling. A 1 3/4 inch attack line will put out a ton of fire in capable, and I stress capable, hands. I also noticed in post fire photos of the structure that the vinyl siding on this building showed little signs of melting above the windows, and there was little black soot over the windows, an indication that the heat was not that severe.
2. Did the engine driver think to vent the second floor windows with the 24 foot ladder after he/she set the pump ?? How about the first floor windows ?? There's usually a couple of minutes before the second arriving gets there, hooks to the hydrant and is ready to give you water...You can take out alot of glass in those minutes which both vents the heat and smoke and gives trapped occupants a better chance of survival....Or did they just stand at the pump panel and watch the tach and pressure gauges ?? The initial radio reports suggested heavy smoke, heavy black smoke, coming from the building. This is a definite signal that quick venting should have occurred.
3. Why didn't Rescue 419 use a 24 foot ladder, or a combination of ladders, to get to the second or third floor if in fact the stairway was untenable ?? Even if the second floor was untenable (it wasn't) a 24 foot ladder could be set up and a roof ladder, with hooks, could have been carried up the 24 and used to reach the third floor window. That's not rocket science, but it does take experience and confidence to effect. Was there a second floor deck in the rear ? (I don't recall) If so, was a ladder used to gain access above the fire this way ?? I do recall that rear access on some of these units is very poor, but even if the stairway was untenable, access above the fire to make a rescue was still possible.
4. While this was apparently a large woman and removing her may not have been an easy task, dragging her to a window on the third floor and shutting the door behind you probably would have saved her life..or, God forbid, drag her to the window and give her your mask, or share it, while you hang out the window to breathe. Stick your face down into your running coat bewteen breaths, you'll live and so will the victim. These techniques won't go over well in today's super safety conscious circles but many lives were saved like this in the past. Unfortunately, the fear of violating a safety rule, even in the interest of actually saving a life, weighs heavily on many of todays young officers.
5. I can see no logical reason in my mind why this woman could have been talking to PSCC for 2 minutes after units arrived and, looking at the condition of the building, was not saved, especially when she communicated her location (or even just her floor of location) to PSCC which then relayed it to incoming units. Then, adding insult to injury, to be missed on a primary search and found on a secondary, that really irks me. I have been on many calls where a victim was missed on a primary, it does happen, but they were always long dead or buried in debris. However, we never missed one in a residential when we knew his/her location and they were still talking on the phone when we arrived.
6. Technology can be a great thing, but you have to know it's limitations and always, always be able to fall back to manual mode. (think about mariners who lose their GPS, they still have to sail the old way, using charts and paper) Thermal imagers can enhance the effectiveness of a search but they DO NOT replace the tried and true method of searching every inch on your hands and knees if that's what it takes. How do you miss a large woman in a small bathroom if you really did go in and search ?? You can't, it's impossible. Without having actual knowledge of what happened, my gut feeling tells me the primary may have been conducted too hastily and with too much reliance on a thermal imager..and the technology failed the crews. If the Rescue did miss the bathroom door, shame on them, knowing the victim was on the third floor they should have been extraordinarily prudent in making sure they missed nothing.
7. Finally, remember this most important precept that has never changed through all the years of firefighting; " Risk alot to save alot. Taking an extreme but calculated risk is only warranted if there is a high probabability of saving another human life," Having a live victim on the phone when you arrive definitely falls into this category.

My sympathy goes out to the family of the victim in this unfortunate event and I sincerely hope, as a result of this, lessons will be learned and future tragedies can be avoided.

Captain Chuck Jacobi, retired
Fire Station 19, Lorton, Va.
 

From a former senior Fairfax fire official.

My experience has shown me that where candidates finish on a promotional list is not always the best indicator of how successful or competent they will be as command officers.

The mistakes made on this incident may be product of inexperience rather than race.

In most instances those with self-serving agendas will use incidents such as those described in the report as justification for their own personal gain or to fire a shot at the other side.

I must admit that to some degree, the lack of training may be the fault of senior management lacking the vision and follow through implementation of a "hands on" company and multi-company command training plan to prepare the large volume of new officers. Fairfax may want to visit FDNY and learn from their experiences in training a large number of newly promoted officers after 911.

What made Fairfax great in the past is their commitment to training. The department was created by trainers and educators and continued to grow under the guidance of previous trainers. They must not let that core value slip away. You can have diversity and competence, if you commit to a strong officer/manger training program, and be willing to stick to it even when others (budget people and the like) criticize the cost of doing so.

Fairfax can over come this incident through an analysis of their current promotional process, how candidates are trained and prepared for command and aggressively attack those issues that surface. Lastly, Fairfax has stood above other fire departments because they aimed much higher than their colleagues. One example was the Career Development Program that was created (with a substantial raise for firefighters) some time ago, under the Isman regime. Through Union pressure, it was abandoned and replaced by a hybrid system that takes Fairfax back into the rest of the pack sad to say. One quote from a senior Union official during discussions and complaints about the Career Development requirements heard by this official went something like “I have never seen a book put out a fire” That comment accepted. The lessons learned from the “book” written by those smarter than you, more experienced than you may some day save the life of a firefighter or that of a trapped lady on the third floor of a townhouse. This latest incident may be the first indicator of this ill-advised decision to end Career Development.
 

Captain Jacobi,

Thanks for your comments. In my interview with Chief Rohr I brought up "risk a lot to save a lot". He was in total agreement.

I was hoping to stream the entire interviews with Rohr and Mohler but we had some technical problems.

You are correct about the siding and the smoke having been to the townhouse a number times myself.

As for rear access, there is none and I am guessing that was likely a big problem for Ms.Chiles. These are back to back townhouse, with an identical row of three-story homes attached behind them. There are no windows except on side A I(end units have side windows). There is only one door in and out of the home. She had walls on three sides and that may have been a factor in her retreating to the bathroom.

During my inital interview with Chief Rohr (May 30th) we discussed this. He was not making excuses for anything that happened or didn't happen on the fireground, but he generally believed if you are going to build them like that, where there is limited egress, they should at least be sprinklered.

Statter
 

To the ALLEDGED former senior official, if in fact you are a former senior official, you too are to blame for the condition of the department. You too have used this incident to fire a shot at "the other side". Also, if you are a "former senior official" as you claim, then my bet is you never had to deal with getting passed over on a promotional list due to your ethicnicity. This my friend, is a problem that runs deeper than anyone will admit publicly.Also, the career development that was instituted during the Isman regime was long overdue for overhaul. Isman died 15 years ago. Everything in the fire department changes routinely. It was time to reconstruct the career development program. Also, if you are indeed a "Former Senior Official", then you would know that the UNION was a huge supporter of the career development system , in it's inception as well as now.
 

"Fomer Senior Official"... wow sounds like you wanted to be someone at one time. The Career Development program within the FFX Fire Dept has many mistakes and the present Senior Officials are finally understanding the problems and working towards fixing them not because of this Lorton incident but an internal grievance. Statter is correct that the problems run very deep into the fire department. Unfortunately, folks cannot discuss them publicly due to fear of retaliations. These are very REAL problems that have caused FF injuries, "close calls" and civilian fatalities. I will leave you with a couple of thoughts and hope the readers will comment - 1) In the FFX Fire Dept we have members who rode a Medic Unit for 15 years or more and then were promoted to a Suppression Officer. This happens with no formal mentoring or training what-so-ever. This just happened from the last Lieut list. Someone who was assigned as an Ambulance Tech for over 25 years is now an Engine company officer. 2) The three current Lieut promotions were from the middle and bottom of the list and yes other candidates that put in for those positions were higher on the list and more qualified. Take a guess? "Diversity over Safety"

OK I will give you one more - What if STATter never reported this incident? Would there be an after action report? NO! I will give kudos to Rohr for stepping up and being forthright.

Chuck Jacobi - We miss you. This fire department needs folks like you now more then ever and the citizens of Fairfax deserve real fire officers/fighters like you and the many others who were fed up and left. How are things at the Sofa King Fine Furniture store? Any deals?
 

Ok, without getting into the argument of union vs county etc, I have one question. Is it possible that the FXCO FD has become so procedure happy that there simply is no easy way to be flexible on the scene? In this report and others..I see way to much time spent on "developing a plan" etc and not enough time on simple old fashioned FIRE FIGHTING. Too many bureaucrats running the fireground, not enough true firefighters putting water on the fire??? Frankly the small city I now live in, with a small paid/volunteer force relying on 5 out of town vol. companies for back up have a much better svae rate than FXCO right now. They have very few "plans" or "SOPS" and handing over command is comprised of simply calling dispatch and telling them that command is now assumed by XXXX. Notice the word SIMPLY is in this post a number of times. Its there for a reason....have we over complicated the suppression effort?
 

Is there any way you could interview the first arriving unit officer (s)? Lets see what they have to say...to my knowledge, one of the officers has a reputation of being 'afraid' of fighting fire or entering a burning building...why is this individual riding the front seat of a fire truck??? Pathetic...
 

The manner in which the FRD operates funnels down from top (including those outside the department), blame should start from the top and work it’s way down, but as someone previously pointed out criticism seems to always starts at the bottom and ends when it get’s to a certain rank. Is there any stand-up senior leadership in the department? The troops do not hire themselves or train themselves; there are many white-hats above them that make that call. Are there any Truman’s in the FXCOFRD, “THE BUCK STOPS HERE” or is it just a bunch of I got mine people in leadership positions.

The senior staff sets the policy and tone for the department; with all their mixed signals to “troops” they are now surprised at the outcome, oh that’s right just BLAME THEM!

An example of policy/tone, next to no vertical ventilation, people are hesitate to go up top and pop it, because it’s been pounded in the psyche that the roof is going to fail. Line officers are timid because the upper management side has sent this mixed message that if someone gets hurt it’s there ass on the line. Newer officers who my lack the experience tends to lead and operate from fear, not of the situation before them but from what they perceive the BFC or DFC may be thinking. I personally do not know the age of this structure, but if it’s more then 20-years old the new construction card can be throw out and even if it wasn’t, the fire was on 1st Floor and not pinging on any structural members of the roof. With the person reported to being trapped on the upper floor a good ventilation hole via the roof would have offered some relief to the victim and increased visibility for personnel searching the floor. Now who should have know this and seeing that it was not being accomplished and having the authority to order someone to accomplish it, that would be the incident commander AKA BATTALION CHIEF, but remember this is FXCO and criticism stops just below this rank.

Another thought, the caller was on the phone 9-1-1 call taker, I’m not sure if the call-taker instructed the victim to go to bathroom or she went herself, we do know that the call-taker, responding personnel (including COMMAND TYPE individuals) knew she was going there, why didn’t they instruct her to get a window open it and stick her head out the window, I believe that might have contribute to a better outcome (as in being located quicker), even if she passed out prior to FRD personnel getting to her, at least she wouldn’t have been tucked away in a bathroom.

Plenty people to blame, plenty things to learn, hopefully we get something out of this tragedy other then trying to pin blame on lower-ranking officers and their personnel.
 

As I listened to the radio traffic of the lorton fire, I felt great saddness. I could not believe what I was hearing. I remember years ago asking the fire Chief (during a station visit) who makes up, or puts together a station shift roster. A lot of white shirts looked at each other...(not wanting to be trapped by an old ladder truck driver)...they all became lawyers...after some sticking and moving, The answer was ACs and DCs. I ask them, who put a certian shift together in the 6th battalion. Everyone in the room started laughing. My point is that the chief is responsible for his appointments. And it sounds like there were alot of problems at the lorton fire. The main problem was the players. They may have talent in certian areas but these were the wrong folks for this one! Fairfax county has the best equitment money can buy. They have the best employee programs. They have a everything a fire department would want. But there is a very real problem with employee placement. For those involved in putting this roster together, I hope that corrective measures have been taken. The issue of being to hot is possible, but sounds unlikely. Fifteen years ago I made the comment "what we need is more live burns" (that also was during a fire chief station visit)....no takers...too dangerous. They didn't realize how important that could be. Fire fighters need to be placed in scary situations that are in a controled enviorment with seasoned personel at the ready. This will teach the trainee how to keep his/her composure during high stress levels (when your thinking about your life!) The ability to think clearly while affraid can be the difference between going home......or not! Many fire fighters have died and/or been injured because of being scared and loosing control and not being able function as trained. Another problem at Lorton seemed to be the ability to problem solve
(while on the run). Too many young officers in key positions (roster problem again). It seams that with the career development program, our ability to navigate a room and contents has suffered. Fairfax, do yourself a favor....let everyone take the test that you deem appropriate for the given position. Then promote the applicant who scores best...first! It does'nt matter where he/she learned it (college/street), what matters is that they have displayed the ability and the knowledge to pass your test! IT DOES'NT MATTER WHERE YOU LEARNED IT!
I miss you all....take care...play smart! Wade Mahaffey T-411 retired
 

I have been gone for just under 19 years now but when I was on the job I had the pleasure of learning from some REAL FIRE FIGHTERS like Chuck Jacobi and learn I did and not a bunch of wishy wash officers who would rather stick a nozzel through the front window rather than get down on their belly and go do the job you were hired to do. I know that there are still a great deal of fine FF's on the job in FXCO, but I also know that the reason I chose to move on was because of this so called "DIVERSITY of SAFETY" it was called that then it was nothing short of reverse discrimination - that has now claimed yet another victim. My prayers go out to the family of the victim and even though I have been away for a longtime this story hit home. I hope that this will open the eyes of the Senior Staff and get them to re-think their agenda. Those of you still on the job who joined and were lucky enough to have FF's & Officer's who taught you what it really means to be a fire fighter - hang on to that and let those lessons guide you through your remaining years on the job - Be Safe.
Jim Johnson - A Has Been
 

Luckily, I came on the job with several years of prior experience (taught by "old timers"). Coming to FrFx I once again was lucky enough to be assigned a seasoned Master Tech. and eventually a safe but agressive truck Lt. But I have also experienced the other end of the spectrum. That's why I'm in no hurry to leave the rank of firefighter (besides loving it) to persue higher rank. I (we) need to hone our basic skills and I believe a person should have at least seven years good experience before even sitting for a promotional exam. Everytime I get disillusioned with this dept. (which seems to be quite often lately) I meet a "new probie" or another good brother/sister that keeps me optamistic. For example my new chief told us that the manuals were good guidelines but we are expected to "think outside the box". I respect the guy already. I was also told this in the academy by a good officer who is no longer there. So there is hope out there. We just need more of these guys......A 25 year fireman (probably).
 

IT SEEMS THE PROBLEM IN FAIRFAX IS JUST LIKE OUR SCHOOLS, SOCIAL PROMOTION AND NO ONE EVER HAS TO ANSWER FOR NOT PREFORMING! MAYBE WE NEED A NO FIREFIGHTER LEFT BEHIND APPROACH. TAKE THE TEST SCORE NUMBER 1 AND GET THE JOB! THE POOR PEOPLE OF FAIRFAX ARE SO BS IN THINKING THEY ARE PROTECTED.
 

Dave:

Thanks for providing a sounding board for firefighters across the region. I, like most of your current posts have left myself anonymous with fear of being targeted for future air strikes. The fact that local, state and federal laws prohibit retaliation, one must be able to prove it.

I aspire to become a fire chief some day. Could anyone in a leadership role please help me answer these questions?

1) Directed to any senior fire official. Do you recall when you had to compromise your integrity and personal standards for a promotional opportunity and at what rank did this occur?

2) How can I balance my moral and professional values to succeed as a firefighter's firefighter?

3) Could you please recommend any reading that may help me advance to the level of fire chief?

These are all serious questions, and hope it might help the readers understand the requirement it takes to achieve the level of supreme politician of a municipal fire department.
 

JK....maybe you are one of those in need of a "no firefighter left behind" program. Look on the left side of your keyboard. There is a little button labeled " caps lock". Push it just once and QUIT YELLING AT US!.
 

One thing that I learned about determining negative outcomes is to ask the question “How did we get here”. Certainly, we cannot overlook the fact that the incident occurred, nor can we overlook the absence of the required decision making process that fire department brass should have made. So how did we get here? For one, the process to become a Lieutenant is based on paper and nothing else. While I don’t have the answer as to best practices, I can tell you that this incident has actually put smiles on some member’s faces because it’s about time. Don’t hold your breath and wait for disciplinary action because it’s not going to happen. On the contrary, what should happen are all fire department members telling themselves that “this could have been me”.

Let’s face it, this fire fatality didn’t occur because of one persons decision, nor was it due the OIC's ranking on a piece of paper. It occurred because A) lack of smoke detectors and B) lack of overall strategy and tactics. Do we want our fire officers to have more experience….sure! How is that measured? Some say fighting fire, while others say day-to-day training. Who knows! I can say, without a doubt that fires are not occurring as often as in yesteryears, and neither is training! Firefighters actually complain when they are taught how to save their own life.

Here is what concerns me. We, as a large metropolitan department, place more emphasis on a number or a color rather than identifying the true evil....lack of experience and lack of training. Take a close look when you read this....why is this happening? Because we are, generally, inherently lazy and we wait for someone to tell us when and how to train. Where is the leadership, where is the initiative, where is the experience? For someone like Mr. Mohler to complain about lack of training proved his disability when he showed up 1 hour late to the required Officers training. Great job, way to lead the pack of professionals! Do us a favor and save the bleeding heart syndrome; try coming to work for a whole month. Some of the other old timers bring up some points that should not be in our firefighting culture. What you were taught caused more injuries and deaths that what is being taught today. We certainly see the act of chest beating, but know that in some cases, the applaud died when you retired.

The real problem is; Fairfax County has not invested the time or energy into the development of our leadership. Considering that the US has 76 firefighter’s fatalities to date, the “self study” application should no longer apply when people’s lives are on the line. Stop the ridiculous “protected class” promotions, or ones that make us look safe and equitable. Equal opportunity is just that, equal.

Instead of ensuring everyone gets trained, we tend to look behind us and want the opportunity to change the action. Sadly, that doesn’t even happen. Look at each Post Incident Analysis and you will see 3 or 4 consistent issues on every lessons learned. Contrast that to fire ground death reports produced by the USFA or NIOSH and the same issues are pointed out; lack of communication, lack of adherence to procedures, freelancing, lack of training, etc, etc, etc.

To the senior staff – Do us a favor and hold to your word of “accountability”. Only then will we regain our self respect which will pull us out of the morally debilitative quagmire that we currently reside in.
 

A few people have hit the nail on the head. We need to burn more. BURN BURN BURN. This is the way to build speed, read the structure, smoke, yada yada. You know the drill from recruit school. This is what we do. This is not what we train to do. We are more interested in ff survival. This is like saying you are going to fail so this is how you can save yourself. (You know, find a small hole and crawl in it hoping it has an exit). Lets train to not have to use ff survival. I know a couple of ff.s that didnt know what a body would look like in a thermal imager when in a hot structure. (I guess that was from all the wax paper in their mask). We need to train with ALL of our equipment! Kudos to some of the battalions who have been training at the burn building for their MUD drills with live fire recently. Now thats a MUD! I am not here to throw stones at anyone, but we need to get back to the basics. If you havent had enough confined space training yet, then go find a colvert pipe and crawl into it. I say LETS BURN!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry I am anonymous, but you know the drill. Have an opinion then get transfered.
 

Why didn't these people know what a body looks like through the thermal imaging camera. Were they not trained on them in recruit school or in the station.

Steve Hartman, Retired, FXCO F&R

PS: If you don't have enough courage to sign your name, then don't post.
 

According to the post incident analysis, the bathroom was searched 4 times by R419's crew and once by a member from E435 and she was still not found. Inexcusable!!!!!!!
And it seems like the IC was more concerned about extension to the attic from a 1st floor fire than finding the victim.
Just my thoughts.

Steve Hartman, Retired, Proud to have served and would do it all over again.
 

"Mohler says he has also heard from some of his members who believe their actions were not accurately portrayed in the report."

How True!!!! They are trying to protect the incompetent and hide the cowards. The report failed to mention the FF on R419 who did not want to enter the townhouse because there was too much smoke.
 

Steve, since you worked for Fairfax like many of us posting here still do, you know anyone that signs their post would be retaliated against by senior staff.

P.S. Don't forget to shave your mustache B-shifters!!!!
 

Amen to that, brother. That's EXACTLY the reason why. Signed....Presently working at FrFx
 

Those of you who know me know I was never one to keep my mouth shut when I was working, which occassionally brought administration's hammer down on me, but sometimes you need to speak up to be heard. I certainly agree with the post "Burn, Burn, Burn" for training. However, in this day and age, NFPA guidelines, which should be just that, guidelines, are taken to be absolute, unbendable law. Mostly due to the fact that municipalities fear lawsuits if something they do is outside the NFPA box. Hence, training fires are strictly limited in intensity compared to how they were conducted 20 years ago. While I don't happen to have my copy of NFPA 1403, Standard on Live Fire Training Evolutions handy anymore, if you read it you will see that the amount of fire and heat that can be generated is very restrictive in the interest of not injuring any trainees. Well, if you don't expose trainees to conditions that are close to what they will actually experience how can you expect them to perform at a high level of competency ?? 3 or 4 wooden pallets, a bale of hay and a smoke machine is not what a firefighter will face when a room full of foam filled furniture, plastics and wood goes up in flames. If they haven't seen that, haven't experienced the heat, haven't had to push themselves to the limit in training they damn sure are not going to be comfortable doing it for real when the training instructor is not behind them. Can training be dangerous, absolutely, just ask, or look at the scars on some of the officers who were burned in training fires that went wrong. It does happen, and precautions should be taken to avoid it. But face it, this is a damn dangerous job (or used to be when firefighters took some heat because their officers actually knew when it was time to stay or time to go). Firefighters and officers who literally can't take the heat of an intense training fire need to be weeded out before they hit the field.

No, I'm not a proponent of promotions based on diversity, race, gender or otherwise, and no, I'm not a proponent of allowing someone who rode a medic unit for their whole career to "jump across" and instantly be an officer on an engine or truck (that's not only sick, it's suicidal), and no I don't believe a college degree alone makes you a good officer (though you do need some book smarts along with experience for sure) and no I don't think the current "live fire" training standards actually provide much training at all compared to what actual conditions can be.

So it becomes a vicious cycle. We can't train under close to real conditions because NFPA 1403 says so and we might get sued if someone is hurt in a training fire, so we send firefighters out into the real world without the foggiest notion of what real conditions will be faced. Then when they fail, the municipality faces lawsuits because the firefighters and officers they produced couldn't function in the way the other NFPA standards say they should. And why ?? Because their training was faulty...and why again ?? Because the NFPA standards don't allow realistic training anymore !! What nonsense did I just say ??!! But that's what it's come to. Fire departments around the country, not just Fairfax, need to wake up, use the NFPA guidelines as loose guidelines and go back to training firefighters and officers the tried and true way, with real heat that knocks you to your knees, real fire, not gas jets and hay bales and real training instructors who understand how far to push trainees to obtain approximations of what they will actually face in the field. Not until then, or until an employee is in the field for many, many years, will we see solid performance from field officers in departments such as Fairfax where fires are not faced on a frequent basis.
Captain Chuck Jacobi, retired
Fairfax County FD 1978-2005
 

Captain: Outstanding post once again. Couldn't agree with you more. Political correctness and fear of lawsuits has brought us to our current organizational culture and disfunction.

Steve: As others have said, its easier to express your opinions when you're retired. Those of us still here, fear career suicide if we speak up and take a stand.

As others have stated, once all of the media spotlight dims, in the final analysis, nothing will have changed. Pity..
 

There are many good comments but please consider the following.
Fairfax buys excellent gear. I've seen gear burning and the FF not knowing. How do we judge heat conditions? The days of “if your ears are burning it's time to leave” are long gone. Judging from other senses is difficult.
Talk has been made about what training is missing but not on the good training provided:
1. For safety and for better firefighting tactics emphasis for officers has been to take a lap. This has been strictly enforced.
2. Lightweight construction burns unexpectedly fast with rapid collapse.
3. Avoid searching above a fire.
4. There have been recent situations where moderate fire conditions have gone to
severe in seconds including an explosion
5. “Risk vs. benefit”.
6. The loss of Kyle Wilson.
I can not speak about the other officers but I have been on many calls with the officer on R419. He has proved himself calm, competent and effective. The risks he would take for himself are different than the risks he would place his crew in (watch out for an officer who doesn’t have that attitude). Could more training help? Always. Would more experience help? Yes. But even experience doesn’t keep a crew completely safe. Look at New York and Boston recently.
I am saddened by the loss of life but I won’t second guess the decisions made. I am glad my Class A’s are collecting more dust.

Captain Jeffrey Tolle
Shift Leader 19-B